Have you ever felt overwhelmed by the numerous transitions life throws at you? If so, you're not alone. I had the pleasure of chatting with Somatic Coach and Healer Sam Pfotenhauer, who shared her own experiences with navigating transitions like moving to different locations, changing careers, and ending a long-term relationship. I've been studying with Sam in her Human Design Training program that she collaboratively teaches with Nadia Last and I've been in awe of how she speaks of major transitions in her life with such grace and self-compassion.
Together, we delve into the power of being honest with ourselves, and connecting with our body to guide us through big decisions. We discuss the importance of understanding that our skills and intelligence come from an innate place, and how to release our attachment to external validation. Sam also shares her insights on the significance of staying with intense feelings of fear and trusting yourself to know what to do with them.
By the end of our conversation, you'll be inspired by Sam's wisdom and experiences, and gain valuable lessons for navigating your own transitions in life and business. Whether you're facing major changes or simply looking for a fresh perspective on embracing the unknown, this episode is a must-listen. Don't miss out on the opportunity to learn from Sam's journey and discover the empowering aspects of navigating transitions with presence and self-trust.
Resources:
Empowered Curiosity Episode 109 with Kaila O'Connor
Download your own Human Design chart at Genetic Matrix
Sam Pfotenhauer is a trauma-informed somatic coach, healer, psychic channel, and human design reader. Her mission is to help men and woman deeply connect with their hearts, bodies, and Earth to live intentionally, authentically, intuitively, and confidently.
Connect with Sam
Kat HoSoo Lee is a trauma-informed Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Rooted Business Podcast. She uses the tools of somatic and emotional alchemy to guide soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. This allows them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, ethical marketing and purposeful service.
Connect with Kat:
This podcast is made possible with sound production by Andre Lagace.
Have you ever felt overwhelmed by the numerous transitions life throws at you? If so, you're not alone. I had the pleasure of chatting with Somatic Coach and Healer Sam Pfotenhauer, who shared her own experiences with navigating transitions like moving to different locations, changing careers, and ending a long-term relationship. I've been studying with Sam in her Human Design Training program that she collaboratively teaches with Nadia Last and I've been in awe of how she speaks of major transitions in her life with such grace and self-compassion.
Together, we delve into the power of being honest with ourselves, and connecting with our body to guide us through big decisions. We discuss the importance of understanding that our skills and intelligence come from an innate place, and how to release our attachment to external validation. Sam also shares her insights on the significance of staying with intense feelings of fear and trusting yourself to know what to do with them.
By the end of our conversation, you'll be inspired by Sam's wisdom and experiences, and gain valuable lessons for navigating your own transitions in life and business. Whether you're facing major changes or simply looking for a fresh perspective on embracing the unknown, this episode is a must-listen. Don't miss out on the opportunity to learn from Sam's journey and discover the empowering aspects of navigating transitions with presence and self-trust.
Resources:
Empowered Curiosity Episode 109 with Kaila O'Connor
Download your own Human Design chart at Genetic Matrix
Sam Pfotenhauer is a trauma-informed somatic coach, healer, psychic channel, and human design reader. Her mission is to help men and woman deeply connect with their hearts, bodies, and Earth to live intentionally, authentically, intuitively, and confidently.
Connect with Sam
Kat HoSoo Lee is a trauma-informed Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Rooted Business Podcast. She uses the tools of somatic and emotional alchemy to guide soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. This allows them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, ethical marketing and purposeful service.
Connect with Kat:
This podcast is made possible with sound production by Andre Lagace.
Okay, my dears, today I have Sam Pfotenhauer with me. I am so excited to share Sam with you. She is one of the facilitators and teachers of the human design training that I'm doing at the moment, but she is so much more than that. I've been sort of watching on the sidelines and I've been in Sam's Instagram audience world for a little while now, and one of the things that I have really appreciated is, I mean, I should just talk to you now, Sam, just talking to the audience,
Kat:but one of the things I really appreciated about you is how you have moved through transitions and how, just as an observer, I see so much of your embodiment, so much of your integration as you move mindfully through transitions, and it's been really lovely to watch. And also it's given me a chance to reflect on my own life and my own sort of like relationship to transitions, and so I thought it'd be great to have you on here to talk about the transitions that you've moved through in your life, give a bit of inspiration for any entrepreneurs out there who are moving through transitions themselves, whether it's like a career change or even within the context of, maybe, their own business. They've been running it for a little while and they're wanting to transition within their own business. Like I thought you'd be the perfect person to have this conversation with, so thank you so much for being here.
Sam:Thank you so much for having me, Kat. I'm so happy to be here. I love this topic because I feel so strongly about it, in part because I have moved through so many transitions in the last three years. I've transitioned where I live a few times in big ways. I transitioned from one career into another, I transitioned from one long-term relationship into singlehood, and so I feel like so many aspects of my outer world have shifted, and I have learned a lot during that process about how transitions can be fun and exciting and empowering and how to find yourself in them.
Kat:So as the external things change.
Sam:You still really feel connected to yourself and who you are. Yeah.
Kat:Yeah, and I think that, as a manifesting generator, I always get so excited whenever there's a kindred spirit of clearly you have a lot of interests, clearly you have a lot of things that you're really stoked on in life and can we still maintain our core sense of who we are in the midst of that?
Kat:And I think that oftentimes at least I'll just speak for myself I used to have a lot of shame around being such a vacillating transition, or myself, of picking one thing and then deciding something completely different the next day, and I think that this conversation will be. I mean, I've heard from so many people, and then, when I sort of like ask about their human design chart, like they often do, come back as being manifesting generators. So if you're a mani- gen listening to this, it's going to be fun for you to just lean into some of those sticky places that you might have experienced in your own life when it comes to transitions, and it's going to be really fun to just sort of like unpack what society says about transitions and how we can sort of maintain our own integrity through these big transitions.
Sam:So, yeah, As you were talking, I was like I got to pull up Kat's human design chart Because I was hearing in your voice like this, really strong for anyone who is like into human design there's these qualities called gates and they're these kind of specific energies and Kat's unconscious sun is in gate 36, which is all about going through major different parts of life and feeling into the emotions of a wild range of experiences and often usually difficult ones. Like there's a part of that that's about going and diving into like the challenging parts and the challenging transitions and the experiences of it And then like almost collecting information and wisdom and to share. And so it's really you're like the perfect person for us to be having this conversation with, because you have kind of your own innate wisdom on transitions and on doing them with this sense of presence.
Kat:Yeah, thank you for that reflection. Just to give folks a bit of context, can you give us a sort of like map of transitions in your life so that we have some pieces that we can sort of work with and just to give people an update on who you are and why transitions have been such a potent experience in your life as you walked through these portals?
Sam:Yeah, absolutely. So I would say my first, well, I guess almost go to transition ground zero for transitions. Yeah, it was more internal and this happened, so I went to. I grew up in Arizona, I went to college in North Carolina and I went straight from college into law school. So it was really I was like 21 starting law school. I was really young and because I went straight through, it was only after I graduated law school that I first really had like space in my life and it was the first time I was making consistent income. It was the first time I would end work and could be just like done with it and when you're in school there's always more you could be doing, and so one for one year after I graduated law school, I lived in New Orleans, which is where I went to law school, and I worked for a federal judge. It's called clerking. It's like the best situation ever. It's an amazing experience because, it's really you learn a ton, it's really well thought of, so it sets you up for all these great opportunities. But you also have a really flexible schedule And it was during this time that I began my spiritual awakening.
Sam:I had this like really intense moment where I went to a sound bath and energy healing, and I had this sudden realization that a lot of this sense of disease I felt in my life, of anxiety, was coming from me not processing my emotions And that if I really wanted to feel confident in my life and I really wanted to feel myself and not feel this like basically I was getting kind of like low level anxiety attacks so regularly, I wanted to not feel those. I needed to get into my emotions. I need to work through some trauma that was pretending didn't exist and I need to share about it. And so that was kind of my first internal transition because I totally kicked me off full on the spiritual path. That's where I learned about human design. Two months later I started consuming all the content I could. I started seeing mediums and energy healers and learned about the concept of channeling. I like went really deep into the whole concept of like where souls come from and different beings and all of that which I thought everyone did on the spiritual awakening. But I've now realized is not necessarily the case And I started to kind of change my inner landscape, excuse me.
Sam:I started to change my inner landscape and I started to assess what do I want. What are my values? for the first time, really, what are my core values? What do I want to feel in my life? and am the way I'm showing up now going to get me there? And I started to kind of, like, you know, shift some of the things I was doing. I was still like I was then.
Sam:So, shortly after the spiritual awakening, I moved up to New York City where I practiced law at a very large law firm called Davis Polk. It's like a traditional large law firm and has some of the best lawyers in the country. It's very rigorous. I learned so much and I started to ask myself, like do I want this, not even being at this place, but like do I want this whole life, and what are the things that I know I want that are incompatible with this life as I'm currently understanding it? So that's big transition one. The second big transition happened a few years later, in the fall of 2020. First off, Covid was probably a transition for all of us.
Sam:But in the fall of 2020, I was living in Manhattan or actually was living in Brooklyn at that point and realized I wanted to quit my job. I realized I did not want to be there at all and I really wanted to get out of there for just my personal well-being, that I didn't know where I wanted to go next and that I probably couldn't figure it out from where I was sitting, and that it was a worthy use of, had saved up all this money to travel and to do all this cool stuff, and I wasn't going to be able to do it anytime soon because of COVID. So I was like use this money, give myself space and really connect inward. And that was very scary because I didn't have a plan and you know it's unemployed and all the stuff, but I knew it was the right decision.
Sam:Then the next big transition was moving to Vermont with my partner. At that time, he also made a massive career transition, totally shifted, pursued what he wanted to an I was very happy for him. I'm still very happy for him. And we lived up in Vermont. That was really important because it totally changed my environment and everyone I was around was in the spiritual community just because of who I met, made friends with there. And then my last, most recent transition about two and a half months ago. I called off my wedding and separated from my partner of seven years and moved out west, where I'm going to be nomadically traveling, but currently in Denver.
Kat:Love it. I have so many little pieces that I want to go back and sort of unpack a bit, because I think that you, sitting here now, you have this really beautiful, like integrated way of speaking about all these transitions. And I know that, like when I've been through like the big major transitions in my life, like I've also, you know, separated from a long-term partner several years ago and moved from being an acupuncturist to doing coaching and then even within coaching, like sort of shifted and transitioned, like like what I was even going to do and who I was going to serve, and like I think that you and I can sort of like sit here and be like, yeah, all that happened, and I'm so glad all that happened, and we can see the other side of it and there's so much joy And you know, this is exactly where my life is supposed to end up, and all that in the midst of it, though, like can we talk about that for a second?
Sam:Yeah, yes we can. So I'm in the midst of one right now, but it's a different context because I've already made big transitions, so I know it's going to be okay.
Kat:So when you're in the midst.
Sam:The feelings that come up a lot are fear, are like is this going to work? And that really is connected to can I trust myself? And I trust that this decision was correct, that there's a reason I'm doing it and that I can make it the right one, Like I'll make it work, And that I feel fortunate to not really be experiencing right now because these past transitions have helped me build the self trust.
Sam:can know it's going to work.
Sam:Like it's going to. I want to get married and have kids one day. I, you know there's a little bit of biological clock pressure not a ton, but like I feel a little bit of that. There's certain things that I wanted, that I had and then decided it wasn't the right fit, and exited, and, I feel, have so much trust. What it is, though, is the strong figure it out energy, And that's something that you, I think it always comes up in transitions where you cannot tell someone with certainty what you're going to be doing next.
Sam:Usually, or you don't have the full evidence yet that it will work, and usually the big transitions, it's like I don't fully know. That's why I'm in transition. I don't know what it's going to look like. I don't know where I'm going to be, or where I'm going to be with, or what I'm going to be doing for a work or for money or for passion, and that feeling can be really destabilizing, and the thing that's helped me the most is how it's, almost like my body's big enough to hold it. So what do I need to do to support myself? So I don't feel rocked by it, and in fact, it feels fun, like how cool to be in a place where it's like I don't know what can happen next, meaning it could be way better than I could ever imagine. Magic's going to come in, amazing people are going to come in, incredible experiences that I can't en vision fully now, and like allowing that reality rather than just being stuck of oh my God, I don't know, and that unknown is so overwhelming that it just crushes me.
Kat:I think what you're speaking to is kind of this like co-creative dance that we all have with the universe, of there's a certain amount of control that you have in the midst of making these decisions, in the midst of you know, like you made particular choices right, like to exit the relationship, to move out of Brooklyn. But that self-trust that you speak of is almost this, like self-trust within yourself and knowing that you've made the right decision, and also like a trust in the universe that, like you were saying, like the right people are going to land in my sphere or I'm going to be going on these adventures and figure out what my next steps are going to be And sort of not trying to like micromanage the universe and the universe's plan for you.
Sam:This is such an important point And, honestly, one that I hadn't really thought about like this before, because, yes, at one point I did have to. Really, I remember, before leaving my job thinking, am I just on some sort of like spiritual bullshit, like is, can I trust this? Like, are things actually going to come If I create space and I'm like in my alignment, will things come? And I remember having that same thought too, even in recent transitions, like, have I like? am I like delusional a little bit, and ultimately deciding no, I feel this within me. I have a lot of evidence in the past that it does work out And whether whatever you want to prescribe it to for me, I prescribe it to universe and creator, but also just the raw power that comes from choosing something better for yourself. That energy is really potent.
Sam:Like the decision of I want something better. I believe enough that it's available and I'm going to take some steps forward. Amazing things can happen, and it's not just about trusting myself, because I can't control a lot of this stuff. All I can do is control once it's here. So it's actually trusting that there's a greater force here.
Kat:I feel called to name an emotion that I mean I'll just describe it to my own story because I don't want to project it onto anybody else's story But like a big part of having the like oomph to be able to transition for me came from anger. Actually, oh, I love that. Like I'm thinking back to when my marriage didn't work out and he and I had been together for 12 years. At that point and we had all the things that you're supposed to have as, like an established couple in society. We had the house, we had the cars, we had the dog and we both had stable jobs and I had built up my acupuncture practice and like all the things that society had told me I needed to do to achieve happiness.
Kat:Like like I did all of it And then I like I got to the top of that mountain and I was fucking pissed that I wasn't happy and like I still felt hollow inside, you know, and I think that having and naming these emotions for what they are because I know that, like so much of the work that you do is about like turning towards emotions and not seeing them. And not seeing them as something to run away from or shy away from. I think that there are parts of me that felt guilty about being angry about these transitions. Thanks again, but ultimately, like when I look back on it, like every single emotion that came up in each of these transitions has been like such a potent teacher And I look at anger as being like one of those, like friends, that have helped me get the like to like leave the marriage, leave the career, leave the things that weren't actually a good fit But that society was telling me was going to be a good fit, if that makes sense.
Sam:I like that. I love that. Anger was the impetus for you and I've experienced and I mean I experienced anger all the time, but, but also with respect to these decisions, though I don't think it was anger for me, I think it was more fear, and it was more fear of where this is going than fear It's. It's like this turning point happens for me where the idea of staying stagnant or staying put feels scarier than the fear of jumping into the unknown. And when I get to that place I can usually feel it on my body. It's like, oh, this is a serious reckoning, ideally, and sometimes it makes the transition before it gets to that place. I like I recognize this is where it's going. I don't want this. I'm choosing because that's ideal, so it's not doesn't feel super reactive, because whenever you're moving out of, fear can distort some things.
Sam:But this realization of I want more, often, the big driving factor is this realization of I want to dream bigger in my life.
Sam:I have a vision for my life that is bigger than what my current lifestyle can accommodate, and I believe that I can experience that. And the bigger is not like. You know, I made way more money as a lawyer than like it's not that like bigger as far as like material items or that sort of stuff, but bigger in debt. It's like deeper and more joy and bigger and expression and bigger and like my connection with myself and bigger and the types of experiences that feel really satisfy me, and this belief and in the variety and just what I get to experience on a regular basis, making room for that And this realization off every single one of them, it's like my current life can't accommodate all the emotions I want to experience. So I need to change my current life and hope that when I make that change, one that I'll know what to do And I'll know how to make those decisions And I'll make, I'll make the right ones that you know, hopefully the "right ones right in quotation marks But that it will actually work.
Sam:And that's what I haven't always known, so the anger for me sometimes can come later. but it's like what the hell? this is so hard and it's not, doesn't feel like it's working yet.
Kat:Yeah, yeah, I just want to take a moment and give folks who are listening just this invitation to like sink into their bodies for a moment and just like like process what what Sam had just shared, because this beautiful wisdom of, does my life, is my life, big enough for the things that I want to happen? You know, and instead of getting stuck in it and frustrated in it and being like, oh, I'm always going to be a plant that's always going to be stuck in this particular pot, and, you know, recognizing that you do have the power, and it doesn't always have to be in the form of, like a big, major life transition.
Kat:That's not what we're saying. We're not saying divorce go your husband right this moment, or you know you have to like leave your your corporate job. Like what we're saying is if there is a vision of something that feels more an alignment for you, you know, sort of assessing and doing like a like a deep, bare bones, raw assessment of the structures of what your life looks like now And being like is this structure capable of getting me there?
Sam:And I think that that's a really, really important question to revisit over time, you know it's very overwhelming to when it's like, oh, you're unhappy in your life, or or unhappiness, I was never unhappy. I wasn't unhappy in this relationship. I just said that the happiness metric isn't actually the correct metric for me. Yes, my happiness metric is how useful? Can I experience happiness and am I getting the range of emotions that I want to experience? not necessarily am I happy or not, but what I'm happy when I have to sacrifice for that happiness is another piece of the equation. But it can feel so overwhelming Where it's like. It feels like the only option is to radically change these lives and the nervous system just can't even handle that and it's like I'm going to get this out, and I so agree, Kat, that's not the place to start.
Sam:The place to start is what do you want in your life? Look back in five years and 10 years, maybe even go to envision yourself in your 80s or 90s, and you're recollecting your life. What are the things that you really want to be able to talk about? What are the experiences that you want to have had, and be radically honest with that. You do not have to know how you're going to get there yet. The only part of your job is to be radically honest with what you just what you are aware that you currently want with your. You know what we want. Of course, to be honest with what you just said, but being honest with that part and then slowly start to look me like okay. Is there any way that my current life can accommodate that And are there any intuitive knowings of this? definitely has to go.
Sam:Or like, I think this is definitely going to be a part of it. There's a lot of gray area. I often I work in my coaching practice with with lawyers who worked in a similar place that I did, and their recipe for finding more joy is definitely not leaving their jobs, it's just bringing more of themselves into it, like bringing more of themselves into other aspects. It doesn't have to be a radical shift on the outside. Sometimes the shift that has to happen is totally internally.
Kat:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I'm so glad that you named that because, like, I think about the minor shifts I'd say minor in quotation marks because they weren't actually minor The, the shifts that I made before I left being an acupuncturist, were things around like, how do I value my time, you know, how do I hold different boundaries in this sort of relational dynamic? How do I negotiate for myself in this contract that's coming up, you know? And so, while on the outside it looks like I just sort of like stepped away from acupuncture one day, which is true, but also the thing that is also true within, that is, i had spent about two years before that recognizing, oh, this doesn't work, I need to change something. Oh, this doesn't work, I need to change something. Oh, this doesn't work. And so then when that, when that step away from acupuncture happened, it just was the next logical step, versus a leap into, like the unknown.
Sam:I had something similar when I was considering or when I started to realize that I wasn't going to stay on my legal job, And at that point I didn't know if I was going to totally leave law. Excuse me, I didn't know if I was going to totally leave law or if I was just going to find a new job. I hadn't figured that out yet, But what I realized I need to work through is my identity as a lawyer.
Sam:So it's like I, no matter what happened when I leave this, or to actually even just be able to consider the possibilities. It's like I couldn't consider what it would be like to not be a lawyer because I was so afraid of not being a lawyer And so my job first was to be like well, do I still think I'm smart If I'm not a lawyer? Do I still think I'm capable? Do I think I'm competent? Do I still think that I'm interesting? And I had to come to the conclusion of, oh yeah, I am those things. Like I am smart, capable, competent.
Sam:Lawyering is one outlet I use to express those skills, but it's not the thing that defines that for me. Those are qualities within myself, and so I don't have to sacrifice those parts of myself simply because I get a new job That helped me so much. So, by time, I actually, like the timing worked out and I was like, wait a minute, I think I might actually just leave this, which I hadn't really considered until a coach I was working with just kind of like through it to me. I had, I was equipped internally, emotionally, to even consider that. Yeah, yeah.
Kat:I love that deconstruction because it's something that I've also struggled with. You know, like I, similarly to you, I went into studying traditional Chinese medicine right out of college So I was right around 21 and then went through that master's program as quickly as I could. And you know, having been the daughter of immigrant parents from Korea, like there was so much emphasis put on my education, the fact that they didn't get to be educated themselves, and how much it meant for them to for me to be going through a master's program and to graduate, and like there was so much like wrapped up in that like shiny piece of paper And I'm not saying that, like you know, like let's fuck the system and like get rid of all these certification systems. I think that it's really important to like, certify and, and and validate people in this way. But for me, what I realized is that what I loved about acupuncture was Daoist medicine.
Kat:Really It wasn't about like the needle and like fixing people.
Kat:It was really about relating to people and like helping them understand what their purpose is and then sort of like macrocosm, viewing that out and being like Oh, we're like actually not all that different from nature And so like like what works in nature, works in the human spirit, and so being able to like sort of zoom in and out, like that's not tied up in my degree, you know, and so recognizing that this skill of zooming in and out with this, like Daoist philosophy, and being like, oh, I can, like for lack of a better word, like repackage that in a different sort of modality and actually be closer to the medicine, like helped me released my attachment to that certificate, and so I ended up doing an entire ceremony around burning my, my acupuncture license, because I felt like that was necessary for me, like on the spirit level, to say, like I am not a piece of this, like like that piece of paper is like not a Horcrux, you know, it's not like a part of me, it is a representation and that's kind of what I'm hearing in your story too of like is the lawyering really defining me, rather than having the definition of myself like having sort of reversed, if that makes sense?
Sam:Yes, I love that and that is inspiring to me. And even just having the ceremony piece of it, because I get caught up into that with even my coaching practice, and like the certifications and stuff, even though I don't have, like it's not that I believe, like, oh, if you're certified through the International Coaching Federation, that you're going to become an excellent coach, like I don't believe that, just like I don't believe that there there are tons of lawyers who are barred, who went to great law schools, who are not good lawyers. I've seen them a million times, so I understand at that intellectual level, and yet I'll still feel an insecurity about not having certain credentials as to where to validate my skills and intelligence, where, in fact, like most of what I'm most skilled at and the things that I really bring to the professional level cannot be taught in that way. Like they can be. I've learned, I've sharpened them, I've expanded them, but it, the part that makes it so good, it's that it's not, it's innate.
Kat:Yeah, and like that's the part that I feel like recognizes that we don't need the validation of these certificates. And for me, what releasing my attachment to my degree has opened up is. I now look at a program and I'm like, like does my body feel drawn to this program? It's one of the things that I asked myself when I decided to take human design training with you. It was less about like, ooh, I get to come out and do human design readings at the end of it, it was more of a body expression of like this is really kind of exciting and peaking a sense of curiosity. And so since then, since the burning of my acupuncture license, I've taken so many different programs and courses and some of them have certificates which are kind of cool, but a lot of them don't.
Kat:And it's all about like what helps you integrate better? And for me, what it all comes down to is like, does this help integrate me as a spaceholder? And you know, like I'm just going to sort of use the human design training as an example is like I looked at a lot of other programs because, like, human design kind of interests me, but what I felt in my body was sort of this like energy being pulled up to my head of, like I'm going to get a ton of information that's really cool, which like is really exciting for a certain part of me, but that's not actually going to help me integrate as a spaceholder. It's going to help me, in tech, intellectualize. It's going to help me, like like kind of puzzle things out, but when I look for a program, it's less about the information that's going to be delivered And like how am I going to be held in digesting that information, if that makes sense.
Sam:Yes, I love that.
Kat:And and so like, like. I think that we have a tendency to just get caught up in certifications, which, again, not saying it's bad, but that can't be the only driver in where you invest your time, in your money, you know.
Sam:And especially, depending on what you're interested in, where it's like there is no great certification for psychic channeling, like there's just not. I'm sure that there are certifications out there, that I can tell you right now, my personal perspective is those will not mean a lot. There is, though they're just there's these qualities of my work now, including channeling, including energy healing, where the certifications available will not really contribute, and part because these fields are relatively small or new in the mainstream or aren't really well suited for certifications or any sort of regulatory like structure. So the reason we have certifications is to as a check for the public and for clients to be able to assess somebody's skill level, so they can feel comfortable, you know paying the money and receiving support, and know that they are adequately equipped. And certifications in some of the things that you and I are interested in aren't really that effective at that. So that's something I conversation I'm always having with myself of like absolutely keep learning and keep educating and keep developing the skills.
Sam:But, as you were saying I love the way you said that like, how helpful is it going to be to learn more information? It's not integrated. If it just exists up here in my mind and I have to travel to my mind and leave my presence and my like knowing to access that information, then it's probably not going to help my clients that much, because the things that are really going to help are so integrated that they're entwined and it's almost like I just know them, like I just see it and they just come out and I don't have to almost like like scan through the encyclopedias of my mind to like find the passage and then like express it.
Kat:Yeah, yeah, and you know, something that I am now sort of like reflecting back on is, like you were saying, that certifications help you know the client base, sort of confirm and verify a level of skill. I think that it goes. It goes even like more onto like a shallow level than that. I think that it verifies a level of disembodied safety, and I feel like I need to like explain what I mean by that, because I talk about safety so much in my work. And to me, safety is this like rooted ground and sensation in your body. It's a somatic experience, it is a it's how you're able to sort of like access, choice and autonomy and sovereignty, right, that's not the kind of safety we're talking about.
Kat:I think that having been through a system that certified safety and quotation marks is like, are you going to harm this person on like a very sort of like shallow, superficial level?
Kat:Like, so, for the acupuncture field, are you going to puncture this person's lung?
Kat:No, because I know that you like you've gone through the training to like understand where the lungs are. You know, are you going to prescribe a counteractive herb that doesn't work with a pharmaceutical that this person is taking? Right, and so like, like there's almost this like shallow level of safety that we're asking to have verified, without taking into account that there are deeper levels of safety that we're looking for with a lot of these modalities And that can't be verified except through experience And through that person who's holding space being a fully embodied person. And so for me, like, the certification is less important to me than, like, the feeling that I have when I'm with a person you know and being like, oh, I can actually tell that this person, this practitioner, has done something, this practitioner has done their work, because that like, like, sort of like groundwater level of safety is the thing that I'm searching for as as a client, and that's hopefully like what, like shedding the idea of a certification has helped me lead into as a practitioner as well.
Sam:It's like that.
Sam:Certification helps to prevent catastrophic risk, and there's a huge benefit of that because we don't want people to you know, be afraid that their lungs can get punctured by staying there and orienting our own individual value or using it as a reason why we can't pursue something that we want, that we know that we are skilled for. Because even coaches or or energy healers or or folks who work in a field that there isn't as much of like an acute safety, like physical safety risk So certifications are like a little bit squishier Yeah, still, of course, need to have the knowledge of like am I equipped to
Sam:be getting somebody or, and is, is this inappropriate? Am I going to create psychological harm at any level? And that's where that also internal integrity comes in.
Sam:It's kind of hard to negotiate, to negotiate with myself of like am I equipped to my ready? Truly, I may feel ready, still be a little scared because there's always more we want to learn and this is a one line thing too for anyone human design and others but there can be this like I need to keep learning more to feel safe, quality that some of us have but also recognize like, but I trust that I'm not going to cause any harm and I trust that I understand when things escalate, when I need to refer out when I am unequipped to. I'm unequipped to handle a certain situation.
Kat:Yeah, yeah, I think the most powerful thing that I've learned on that level is just saying I don't know, like, like we have this thing in our culture where, like it's like almost taboo to say like I don't know something, and to me I don't know gives me the discernment of whether I'm staying in scope or not, and so that speaks to your integrity piece.
Kat:That you were saying is like it, like I almost see, like my path, like by, for example, let's say, somebody brings something to me and I am put into a state of I don't know, which doesn't feel that great, and so then I get to sit with that I don't know within my body as a practitioner and be like is this and I don't know where I need to understand a little bit more about this client, and so therefore, i can then understand, and then I know right, is this? and I don't know where I need to learn more information about this before I can speak like about this, and then he sort of embodied an integrated way And then I could say I know right, or is this a situation where that I don't know is saying this is actually not within my scope, which means that I need to refer this person to somebody else who can actually better support them Right.
Kat:I love that And I think that it's such an important piece that like, like as service providers, it's so easy to get wrapped up in your ego, you know, and to like be scared that, oh, if I say I don't know, I'm going to be thought of as like less than or, like you know, come off as like an imposter, and that is like your most important tool, belt in your box of like learning how to be and stay in integrity, is I don't know.
Sam:And there, at least for me, I always had such a fear like, well, they're going to think that I'm just incapable, and that's just not necessarily the case. They may realize, oh well, I actually came for this support, and if you don't know, then then I'm going to go elsewhere, which is whatever. What actually we all want anyway, yeah, and because you don't want to be working with someone that you're not equipped for, yeah. Or it could be like okay, yeah, no problem, and that used to happen with human design for me. I would get questions on advanced primary health systems, variable stuff, and I wouldn't know and I would like panic.
Sam:And usually the other person doesn't care. They don't even know what an energy type is. They just saw a word on a page and were like asking about it And I would have to like have this fight or flight. It's okay to just say I don't know. Yeah, I don't remember what that means, and like here's a, I can send you a resource later if I have one. Yeah, and and there's a reason I don't know is because I have decided it's not that important for me to know, and the information it's not like I don't know, because I just forgot to read that chapter or something. Like I, it's, I don't think it's essential or valuable or necessary for the sort of services that is offered.
Kat:Yeah, Yeah, And and also like sort of keeping in mind like there's no possible way that you know everything, Like, like, even in like a singular modality like Human design or acupuncture like I got so many questions that I didn't know within acupuncture all the time, because it's like a practice that you know you could study for several lifetimes and still not know everything, And so like, when it comes to I don't know these, these sort of spaces where we are sort of forging paths that haven't been forged before, like it's totally okay to say I don't know, and that would actually be in better service to your client than to try to like make it up as you go. That makes sense. Yes, Yeah, Yeah, I'm sort of running my brain through your timeline of transitions to see what else I want to pick apart, because I should have been taking notes.
Kat:Um, can we speak about the somatic feelings of safety when it comes to transitions? Yes, I want to get your your take on on what is the difference between, Like an intuitive this is scary, this brings up a lot of fear, but I know that I'm meant to do this versus, like the fear of trauma and the fear of conditions and the fear of you know things that don't really serve us Like. How do you specifically, Sam, how do you differentiate between those two sensations of fear and safety?
Sam:The first thing is that they feel differently in my body. So fear with this is truly unsafe. This is traumatizing, this is bringing up. That hits my body differently, it hits it more intensely. I'm probably going to need to like disassociate, to like get out of it or like do something else where the other fear is more like and I can locate it a little bit differently. So fear of I'm scared of this I can usually locate to. I'm scared of judgment, I'm scared of disappointing others, I'm scared of failure, where the other fear is usually much bigger, much harder to piece apart, like just a like overwhelm, traumatizing fear And I don't know if I can like pinpoint the vision. So I'm going to talk. It's almost harder for me.
Sam:I haven't felt this deep, somatic fear with a decision for several years. It's kind of harder for me to remember. I do feel that sort of fear. I lived in a home that had some violence around it last year, and so I would physically feel that fear of feeling unsafe in a really, really intense way. But the big decisions that I made recently, I have felt really intense fear and a true knowing.
Sam:One question I asked myself is if I knew it would 100% work out and I'd get to exactly where I'd want to be in three months and six months would I do it? And if it's like, oh yeah, no problem, then that's always telling me that I'm afraid of judgment, I'm afraid of, like, instability, but they can both feel intense. So last week I'll just give this example I had a really intense fear in my body, like sobbing, hysterical, about I was selling all my possessions and getting rid of everything I owned, except what I could fit in my car. I was packing out of the house I shared with my last partner and I was moving out west and I'm like what the hell is going on? And I'm like I all my external metrics of stability and accomplishment. So I hadn't really realized until I broke up with this relationship that I had felt a sense of accomplishment, of being engaged and about to be married in a long term relationship.
Sam:It did something to me of like flexing to others that I'm like a put together person who, like has our life together, and luckily, I think I have a really strong sense of self. So once I could see that and it didn't like crush me I was like, oh, that's an interesting belief, like I'm going to choose a different one. But I still felt that I felt this feeling of like wow, I'm an entrepreneur, my job, like, who knows where my work will be in six months or a year, like, I just simply couldn't predict. I have reasons to trust it and to feel more stable in it, but it's still like outside of my full understanding. I no longer have an apartment or any place that I'm like calling home. I don't have any of these material possessions. I had accumulated all this cool furniture and like things that were also kind of a flex, like they're like some of that was fancy, like a four bedroom home, got rid of all of that. I kept my juicer, my Vitamix, so I have a few important things, but most of it and I felt like a tennis ball floating in the ocean And it was so intense.
Sam:But what it felt like inside my body I was. I was feeling myself feeling really anxious and I was feeling myself feeling really scattered and I was trying to pack up and do all these tasks and I couldn't focus on them. And so I said, okay, I'm going to lie down and do a 20 minute meditation and see what, if I need to ground anything, or what comes up. And about 10 minutes come up, it was just waves of fear and grief like pulsing through my body, through my chest, through my stomach, all the way down my legs up into my throat. And it was this feeling of you are untethered and there is nothing grounding you and anything could happen.
Sam:It felt like I was a tennis ball floating in the ocean. I was just going to get tossed around And I had this like internal dialogue of like, do we need to do anything with this? And this voice inside me said you are going to know exactly what to do with this. You're skilled at visioning into the future. You don't have to do anything with this, you just need to feel it. And so then I just felt it and I just like, felt the emotions and I felt this intensity and I felt this kind of like I don't know what's going to happen next. It's okay, my body is big enough to handle this fear. I chose this and this is a natural like contraction that comes after like big decisions. But just be with it and that's enough.
Kat:I think the just be with it and that's enough is such an important thing to name here, because I think that oftentimes, when we're in the midst of like a big feeling like that, we want to do something about it.
Kat:Like, like, I feel like there's and I've like supported enough clients through this to know that like in that moment, if I give them a sense of structure, that's not actually going to serve them, it's going to be a bandaid for the situation, versus if you give them a sense of like, holding and container, like that is exactly what that feeling needed. In that moment of like, hey, you're not wrong for feeling like a tennis ball floating in the ocean, you know, and let's turn towards that And let's actually sort of like sit with that and not make that wrong because you're right, like you're going through some big, massive transitions, right, and then there are all these like threads of identity and sense of purpose and you know, flexing for, like you know to use your words involved in that decision, and so like actually like totally understandable that that's how you feel right now, and but then it moves.
Sam:Yeah, because it doesn't stay there. So it's like moved, and by the next day it's like Oh my God, anything can happen. Yeah, like you, if you're big enough, if I can dream it, it can happen Like my job is just dreaming big enough to allow new things to come in and be open to it, and that's a beautiful part of that somatic processing, of just like being in the depth of emotion. Yeah, yeah, it creates space.
Kat:Yeah, and then you hold a little kid who's like scared, you know, like they're not going to stay in that feeling forever, whereas if you were to like tell that kid like, oh, like, why are you feeling this way? And like sort of have resistance towards turning towards that emotion yourself, that kid's going to have a harder time processing that emotion and actually moving beyond that emotion.
Sam:One thing that I noticed of when it was right to do things that were really scary. The job was a big one And then leaving my partnership was a big one because there wasn't a lot of with the partnership, especially I was. I was really happy in the relationship, so it was kind of it was actually very surprising for me at some level that this was coming up And I, for me, the sensation feels like I'm being pulled by a string in a direction And it's kind of like I'm already on the train and it's like you can like fight being on the train and hate it, but you're on the train, like this string is pulling you forward. So it's either like explore it and accept it and notice it and being like, okay, this is going to be really scary, but I'm going to do it anyway because I know that that's where I need to go.
Sam:The other thing that really comes up is kind of back to that question of like, if it was six months, would I do it? It's this belief of like what, what am I telling myself? And particularly, what are the negative beliefs or limiting beliefs that I'm telling myself, that excuse why I would stay, want to be here? Like what am I accepting as true? And are those things actually true? So, with the job example, for me to be willing to stay at that job, I would be accepting as true that my job could never really be that fulfilling. I was believing that that it wouldn't be possible for me to find work that truly felt fulfilling and made money, and that if I had it spaced to figure it out, I wouldn't get any more clarity. And so I started looking at those like am I going to agree to a world where that's true? And if not, then that's usually kind of tells me where I need to go next. Because the only reason that I'm staying here is because I'm agreeing to a belief that keeps me small. And I'm afraid to believe the bigger one because of the consequences. And I made that agreement a few years ago and I've really stuck with it.
Sam:I do not make decisions out of fear And it's kind of interesting, earlier said it like fear can be the impetus, it can be the spark. But I'm not choosing things because I'm afraid of failing, because I'm afraid of judgment, because I'm afraid of, like, not succeeding or not having support. As long as my basic needs are met. So, like with the job situation, I was like, okay, I would go through the worst case scenarios which some people don't do, but for me it helps. Like what are the worst case scenarios here? Like I can't get a new job, the market crashes, blah, blah, blah.
Sam:Like, okay, could I go work in a totally different place? Are they hiring there? Is there a place I could stay safely? Like, as long as I kind of look at some of the worst case and be like I can handle it, I'm not putting myself, no one wants it and I wouldn't have, you know, I didn't choose things but knowing that it's a very unlikely situation, but can I handle it. And is that risk worth the potential gain, then I'm going to move forward. Yeah.
Kat:I think that's such an important practice, and I think specifically to sit with that practice until you get yourself out the other side.
Kat:Because when, like, because everyone's minds just naturally go to the worst case scenario anyway, and so, like, sometimes people are scared, like, oh, if I give myself permission to go into a worst case scenario, then, like, am I just going to just spiral and just get stuck in that land? Right? And for me, when I hold space for somebody who's doing that practice, it's like okay, so then what next? And then what next? And then what next? And sometimes I have to ask that question like 20 times before they're able to like get to a place where they're like, oh, actually like, even though I've gotten, even though my imagination has taken me, to a place where I'm now living on the street by myself with a cat and I have no more money and my children all hate me and you know like, and then the list like keeps going. But then we start to like climb ourselves out of that hole. And I think that that is a really crucial part of that practice is to like, keep asking yourself and then what, and then what, and then what, until you're able to like, even if it's like 20 times later.
Sam:climb yourself out of that hole. Until you show yourself that you're okay, yeah, and you feel that feeling, because it's what you're actually doing with that practice is figuring out. What is the underlying feeling there? It's like all this is that what's like for me, like then what, then what? And it's like then I'm afraid that everyone will think I'm a loser, yeah, and or I'm afraid that everyone will think that I was irresponsible and it's like okay, well, that's the fear then.
Kat:Yeah. So feel it.
Sam:How does that fear or that feeling or that thing feel in your body, that thing that you're so afraid of happening and holding it and then showing yourself okay, I can hold it, yeah, i can hold it. And then what? Yeah, i agree, it's like everyone's minds go to the worst case scenario, but it's almost like they just circle it. Yeah, and actually it's so useful to go in because once you start saying it aloud, usually it's not that bad. It's usually like someone's winning mad at me, yeah, or something. That's like not to discount that. But when you really list out what the risk is and then you kind of balance it with well, what are the risks of me staying, and how does that feel in my body? Let's say we don't change at all for the next three years. Where might you be then? What's happening there? And then that kind of helps to bring a lot of that clarity in but, it's like being radically honest with yourself about the whole landscape.
Sam:I think that's helped me a lot with the fear and the confidence, because it's like I've turned over these stones and I trust that I can handle all of those things.
Kat:I want to return back to the original question, because I think that what we've answered is and like really fleshed out is the fear of wisdom, like, I feel like you've really given us a sense of like. Okay, so this is what wisdom sounds like when fear comes out, and I almost get this sense of like, almost like being pulled into and drawn into the fear in a way that actually makes you more present in that moment, and part of that is the flavor and the texture of the fear. But also part of that is choice, like you sitting on your bed and being like okay, I'm going to do a 20 minute meditation, 10 minutes in, here are these waves that I was scared of coming up and I'm going to sit with this right?
Kat:I think I want to sort of contrast that with the other side of fear, which is the fear of trauma, which is the fear of like. Is it instinct, is that the word? I want to call it instinct, but like, it's almost like the like, the animal part of you takes over, and it sounds like you had mentioned like disassociation, And so is that a marker for you when you have the like, fear of trauma come up, this like sense of disassociation and how do you bring awareness and bring yourself back into like a state where you get to be present again? Yeah, Okay.
Sam:So the best memory that's coming up it's not around career, but it's around like sexuality and sexual expression. So would that be okay if I shared that here? Yeah, okay. So I have a podcast, too, called Wild River, and in like my very first episodes, i think I shared one of these stories.
Sam:So I had had, I've been attacked and had some like, also just like disempowering sexual experiences that led me to the belief that I'm not safe sexually and men are going to hurt me. And even though I was with a partner that's extremely safe and loving and would never hurt me these, and had been together at this point for five, six years, these feelings would come up And so what would happen is I would disassociate during sex. I would like just go elsewhere and start making lists or whatever. And one of my somatic trainings were like where do you go and disassociate? I remember my friend who was taking was just like I go to like another, like a 5D realm, and I'm like up there and I'm like I make lists, I like go through my day And that's where I would go, because it just felt safer and I would experience a lot of numbness And I remember I really wanted to work through this, but I had so much fear in my body.
Sam:So it's, it's the fear is within a level of a threshold, then so it's, it's tolerable. Then it's like, okay, you stay in it. I feel it in my body. I can tell the difference because I can't locate it as well or it feels really primal, it's like I'm going to get hurt or die. It's not this like when I say located. It's not like I'm afraid of being rejected in this way from the, it's not as it's not as clear as that. My body is shaking more and and it's off. Both can be really visceral, so I wouldn't necessarily want is more visceral than the other, but I can't fully explain it as much, or what I can locate it to is my fear of safety. And in this, that specific instance, i remember knowing and this is what I mean was it was within a level that I could articulate Cause a lot of times when people are in that traumatized state, they are not, are in a triggered state, they're not able to work with the emotion, and so in that say I would say, don't try to push it.
Sam:Luckily our bodies luckily or not luckily, but like our bodies are really good at shutting off and you will often start to notice yourself disassociating or going to a different place. But if you're in that place and you're like this is too much ground, maybe you have someone in your life that can help you co-regulate, work with a practitioner to help you process those big emotions. The point of this story I had been processing my trauma around sexuality for like years And so I had already had a lot of support of processing the big ones. So I could, one, I could recognize it, I can recognize what it was coming up and why it was there. And two, it was much smaller And I remember we were like having sex or about to have sex, and I remember telling him like I'm so afraid that you are going to hurt me right now.
Sam:And I remember being really afraid to share that, because it's a hard thing to hear that, your partner tell you that. And but I, but I knew I needed to. I knew I needed to name the fear and get support around it because that was the only way I was going to be able to break through this like kind of traumatic response. And he had like the perfect response. I remember he like grabbed my face and it was so much intensity told me I'm so sorry that you have been unsafe before, but you are safe now and you are going to. You are always safe, you are never going to be hurt again. I have you, I got you, like you are safe now, and I want you to know that and feel that And I literally felt so much sensations and shaking through my whole body, I like literally felt my womb like release, and so in that moment it was like okay, I recognized it and the thing that I needed support for, because that traumatic experience was from my partner, because that's like the origin of the trauma, where and others maybe the origin of the trauma still isn't safe, like maybe if you've, or there, or it can't be corrected in that way.
Sam:But I think the the underlying thing is sensing, so being having sense of your emotions, feeling them, giving them space from, and then not making decisions out of that place, so not making decisions in the throes of the fear. So for like a big transition and said seeing if you can get to the other side And if you're not, if you can't, that's a great time to go see a practitioner, because when we're with practitioners they really increase our tolerance or like our ability to process those emotions. Yeah, Kat, did that answer your question?
Kat:It's kind of windy. Thank you so much for for sharing that piece, and I think it's so important for people to to see how these things play out in like real scenarios, because oftentimes people have so much compassion for someone else's story and so little compassion for their own. And so if you are somebody who disassociates like Sam does, and you felt just like a drawing in towards your your sympathy muscle as you were hearing Sam share her story, you know allowing that muscle to be exercised towards yourself as well, because part of this is that the disassociation was actually really wise of your body. You know, in the moment of being attacked, in the moment of experiencing a particular trauma, your body, in its infinite wisdom, said we can't be here right now, we need to check out. And so people oftentimes have a lot of shame around their disassociation.
Kat:And to me, when I hear your story, it's like of course you disassociated, right, and of course you continue to disassociate, which doesn't mean you have to get locked in that pattern, but as you're bringing awareness and as you're bringing sensation and as you're bringing like tangible expression to that, that is what helps you sort of stretch that, that tolerance that you were talking about. And so, therefore, you know, I'm sure this, this will be a thing that you continue to play with and continue to have a relationship with, but, like, sexuality is going to be like almost like a yoga practice for you, you know, of like, can I stretch to this point And does that feel okay? Ooh, that didn't feel quite good, so let me just back it in a little bit. Can I stretch again? Does that feel okay? Different partner, how does that feel, you know? And so I think it's really important for for folks to be able to recognize that if, if Sam is like worthy of having compassion and sympathy towards our story around disassociation, you are completely deserving of that as well. Yes, yes.
Sam:And there is shifting that can happen, like I remember in the early years, of realizing like, oh man, this is definitely sexual trauma, and believing like it may never change, like I may never be able to experience presence and the whole range of emotions, and that has so not been the case. Like, it's like 180. And it took time and it took a lot of feeling really intense emotions. Like there was a lot of feeling really really intense emotions because I had a lot that I needed to be present with, because I couldn't be when they were happening because it wasn't safe and it wasn't equipped. So now it's like, okay, I need to be present with some of these emotions and recognize the way it's impacted my life. But now that I'm on the other side of it, it's dramatically different And it's so helpful to know that.
Sam:And I think something worth saying is when I talk about like okay, it can be like a fear, like a fear of failure or a fear of judgment that comes up with these like career transitions. For you, that may be a traumatic trigger. It's not for me, it's just, it's like a low level of fear, but it could be for you.
Sam:And so the signs are kind of like how much does it overwhelm your body? Does it feel like it's something you can locate? And sometimes even things that aren't traumatic trigger can still really overwhelm your body because your threshold is not yet has been stretched to accommodate that. And so knowing just however you want to categorize it, but knowing that there's a process of feeling big emotions And if it gets too much, get support. And there's a lot of ways to get support You can work with somebody, but you can also like bring in a safe person in your life.
Sam:That might be adequate, depends on the thing. It could even be like supporting yourself by going on a walk or some sort of like regulating activity that makes you feel calm and grounded. So when you go into that emotion, like if somebody's processing a big emotion, it's going to be way worse if they've been on TikTok all day and like hungover and like in an airport, and it wouldn't be if they've been like in a bath on a long walk in their home that's really clean and safe and they got a good night's rest. And so it's like you create that environment for yourself and that'll allow yourself to process more and get through more.
Kat:Yeah, absolutely. I think I also want to name the opposite reaction, because this is where I go to when I'm in like a traumatized state is I go into fight mode? I don't have very many experiences of disassociation in my life, but I do have a lot of experiences where fight has actually saved me, and particularly when it comes to work and career, like the fight was like my go to mechanism and it's also validated and valued in our culture right now is like oh my gosh, you're such a hard worker. Oh my gosh, like I can't believe you accomplished so much in such a little time. Or oh my gosh, how can you be awake after a 12 hour shift?
Kat:And so like I think that for me and I just want to speak to both sides of the audience like there's folks who disassociate and then there's folks who go into fight mode, which is which is an equally traumatized I wouldn't say equally because to go into like a free state, you kind of have to like go into like oh my God, I'm gonna die, but it is also a traumatized response and to recognize that as such.
Kat:And so for me, a big practice that I do with my business, and this is one of the reasons why I think business is such a spiritual practice is when I feel that somatically in my body, like and it feels like I don't know you probably have some like human design-y type things to say about this but like, like, almost like this, like engine gets turned on in my stomach and it's like okay, like we can do this, and like I get like I've started to now recognize this as like this is my adrenalized response is like my skin gets really prickly, you know, and like I can do almost anything.
Kat:When I'm in that state And I've started to recognize I cannot, I have to do the bare minimum. On those days Like those are the days where I do not push my body, those are the days where I do not make big decisions, those are the days where I do the bare minimum. I show up as in the deepest level of capacity that I have and everything else that's optional like gets de-prioritized, and I try to prioritize napping, which is not always easy for me to do.
Sam:Yes, and so that's kind of to this point of like reacting. So it's like when you're in the big fear, when you're in dissociating, when you're fighting and you the way for anybody is like I don't know how to tell the difference. Just start asking yourself how am I feeling? And just collecting information, like notice throughout, like days when you have something stressful happening, days where you're really unhappy, and work days where you're really happy days, you relax, whatever, notice it and notice not just the name of the emotion but physically, like what's happening for you And I believe and a human design has informed this for me but make decisions out of a grounded place, especially big transitions, like make them out of a grounded place.
Sam:So if you need to create more time, you thought you were gonna know by a week and you need a month because you're not feeling grounded. Either you're reacting or in a fight mode, because the risk and I'm curious if this has played out but if someone, if a client was telling me this, the thing that I would be concerned that could happen is you're more, it's like the survival instincts is kicking in, you're fighting and you're losing the discernment of do I want this Like, do I want to fight for this. Is this something that I want in my life, and that discernment is what everybody making a big transition like. That's what you need to be locked into. So if anything's keeping you from that, then you need more time or space or support or whatever to help you get clear on it.
Kat:Yeah, yeah, thank you so much for naming that.
Kat:I think that discernment piece if I take it into the body, it's small intestine energy, and so I think about the digestive tract as being like, oh, like, such a beautiful metaphor for life.
Kat:But it's like you're taking in information, your stomach breaks it down, and then the next step in your digestive tract is like your small intestine literally says is this good for me, is this not good for me? You know, and when you look at folks who have IBS, who have a lot of issues with their small intestine, one common thing that they also have is stress in their lives, and so when we have our decisions being made from a reactive space, you actually lose that ability for your small intestine, on a physical but also energetic level, to discern is this good for me or is this bad for me? For me, being in fight mode means that I over commit, and then I feel locked into those decisions, and I regret that I've made that over commitment, and then I still feel like I need to show up anyway, because I've now given them my word, and so that is why I know that I have to do the bare minimum on those days that I've just described as being adrenalized, because everything feels like a yes when I'm in that space, you know.
Sam:Yes, i love that's such, it's such a helpful one. I really love the small, intestine analogy. but also it's so helpful to hear, like how it feels in your body, because it's gonna feel different for all of us, and like having that level of awareness and being able to describe it and then knowing like this is why there's a reason why, like, we have these like somatic suggestions of like, when you're feeling this, do this or don't do this, because there tends to be patterns, and it's like and you can learn those patterns for yourself, like anybody listening can learn and just take in information and sometimes feels like a mistake, like, oh, i should have done it differently, but now you just know. like, okay, days when I'm feeling like this, avoid X.
Kat:Yeah, absolutely.
Kat:And you know your body's gonna be the best partner in all of this, like really and truly, the more and more you're able to listen to your body and tune into the body's sensations and really interpret the communication that's coming from your body.
Kat:Like again, I think it kind of goes back to the self-trusting that you were talking about at the very beginning is like, to me, self-trust begins and ends in the body, like it's less about the decisions I'm gonna make and you know I'm gonna trust myself to do this, I'm gonna trust the universe to do that. Like it really comes down to did I listen to my body in that moment And did I interpret that correctly? And if I didn't interpret that correctly, it's like, oh, that gets logged into my bank of like understanding what my body's actually trying to tell me. You never get it wrong, you know It's always this like, like I don't know. Like I've been in a relationship with my husband now for seven years and like we're always having to like clarify our communication, you know, and so that's no different from your relationship to your body.
Sam:Yes, I always think of our body as a relationship. Just, it's a relationship with our body. It's just like any other person in our life. And so if you haven't asked your body, how are you feeling, how are you doing? for 10 years, or whenever it just shouts to you, you maybe ignore it half the time of like I'm really hungry, it's like no, you're not, you're gonna eat in a few hours. Then your body's gonna start telling you, just like if you had a neighbor that you ignored for 15 years. Like if you ask that neighbor, how are you today, they're gonna say fine or good. They're probably not gonna tell you like well, and then give you all the specific details.
Sam:But, like any relationship, it can be rebuilt. And so for some people I can almost hear a question from the audience like how do you know that you have this specific like sensations? She's been talking to her body for a long time. When you start the really like connection with the body, you may just hear like hot, cold, sweaty, not sweaty. Like you may start to notice like oh, my throat feels tight, or like I just feel tight but I don't really know where, and all you have to do is just keep asking and getting curious and then being willing to do something with the information over time. So it's like, oh, every time I'm around this person it really doesn't make me feel good. If you just ignore that, then your body might stop communicating some of that information to you. You don't have to make a radical decision on it right away, but just noting like, okay, day 75 of me feeling chest, like my chest being tight every time I walk into the workplace. Like I hear you body, like I'm listening, yeah.
Kat:And you know you can start with things that don't have a ton of consequence, like and actually I would encourage you to start with something that has like very little consequence.
Kat:Like, hey, do I want Thai food or Chinese food tonight? You know, do I feel like eating a big meal versus a small meal today? Do I feel like going for a walk or doing yoga? Do I feel like taking a nap or watching TV? You know, like it's in those small, subtle ways of communicating with your body that you then can like have that self-trust that I think you and I have both talked about, to like leap into these bigger decisions and be like hey, like I trust you, Like we've got this together, you know.
Sam:Yes, I so agree, And I agree that the place to start is with small decisions. That's how you collect the evidence, because it's like, don't take our word for it, like you're going to have to figure out for yourself Your body, is this incredible guidance or compass? It's incredible compass and GPS, but the way that you develop that is by feeling it like for yourself.
Kat:Yeah, yeah, totally. Well, my dear, I just want to take a little pause and just see if there's anything else that you're like, like dying to share this piece, and I can sort of like word it in a way that invites you to share.
Sam:Let me see. I think the only thing I would like to address is, when you're making a big transition, being selective about who you let in.
Kat:So, Sam, we've been talking about discernment here, And so we've kind of chatted through how to discern these different types of situations. Can you talk about discernment when it comes to people in your life?
Sam:Yes, yes, okay. This is particularly important with transitions. So when you are considering making a big decision, I highly highly recommend being very discerning with who you speak to that about, because other people have their own perspectives, they have their emotions, they have their own fears and anxieties, they have their instincts, they have their ideas some of them are conditioned ideas. And even, just from a human design perspective, there's this quality in human design where you pick up and you amplify other people's energy within what we call centers, which are kind of like within certain qualities, and most people are gonna have places where they're gonna pick up and amplify other people's energies. Whatever they're picking up can be different for some it's emotions, for some it's fears and anxieties, for some it's their direction, for some it's ambition. But you're gonna pick it up and you're gonna take it in, and when you do that it can be really useful. It can give you something to kind of feel into, to respond to, it can open things for you, but it can very often have the effect of influencing you and confusing you, and so, when you're making the decision of a transition, be very thoughtful. I highly recommend taking time for yourself. Maybe there's someone who sparks that.
Sam:But like, even before letting talking to your partner or your close friend or a parent or someone that you would usually go to, really get into your emotions, see if you can figure out what do I know to be true. You don't have to figure it all out. I still think it's really amazing to go to our community or your own version of your board of advisors to get feedback, but figure out, like, what are you clear about? So I'll use the job example with my job. So there's one reality in which I am just like I'm thinking about leaving my job. I'm open to any feedback. There's another reality in which says I'm thinking about leaving my job.
Sam:I know I'm unhappy, I know I don't wanna be in this field. I have these concerns about money, but I'm not that concerned, so I'm not really open to feedback on that. I'm open to, or I haven't decided whether I'm gonna stay in law or leave law, or whether I'm going to pursue, like this opportunity and who. I should tell So, rather than just going to your community with the whole question, go to with the part that you actually are looking for support on this way you stay grounded in yourself, even the most well truly the most well-meaning people who are really aligned can bring their own stuff up into it, and it can be so easy to be like I wasn't afraid about money, but now I am, because this person had this very real concern, but like it's not your concern right now and it can actually derail you Versus then actually being open, cause it can be really helpful to go to those people and get their ideas and even get their support, but sometimes they can't support you yet or they have to go through their own emotions about it.
Sam:And so letting people in thoughtfully, letting people in that you fully respect and want to hear, asking people only when you actually want to hear what they have to say, but also communicating your boundaries at some level, like this, is what I'm available for.
Kat:Yeah, yeah, thank you for saying that. I think it's like I'm reflecting back on my divorce and like how, oh my gosh, so many projections. Like everyone had their own feelings and thoughts and while they were trying to be supportive, it wasn't always the most supportive thing, and so I think, if I could do that over, I loved that I had two therapists that I was seeing at the time. I had one therapist who was like very focused on attachment theory, and so, like I got a ton of like insight about my own attachment patterns from her. And then I had another therapist who worked a lot with like internal family systems And so she gave me the like context of like why this was like so difficult and painful in like in terms of like how it fits into like the bigger, broader context of my family. So I would have, I love that I had that support and thought of that support as I was going through that transition.
Kat:But I think the piece where I would have invited people in differently is I would have shared, hey, like this is what I'm needing right now, and most of the time, that thing I'm needing is like very rarely gonna be advice, and people were very, very open to giving advice and not so open about holding space And so like if you can come into a space and say, hey, like I need you to just listen to me, like I need to vent today or I'm going through a particular wave of emotion and like can you just listen, would have been much more helpful than sort of like.
Kat:At times I felt like I was like in a pinball machine, with everyone else's like feelings and how they would react to a divorce and how you know they would feel in the circumstances that I'm feeling, and it's like, yeah, I accept the empathy of that, but That can be a really confusing landscape. So, so really important. Thank you for, for naming that. I'm bringing in the discernment of of who your people are and who, what your support system looks like and how you can cultivate that for yourself.
Sam:Yes, I agree, and if you are going through a transition like a separation Or anyone but there's certain that come come to mind more than others ask yourself How do you want to hold yourself during it? So, like, I knew I was gonna get some of these projections And so it's like, okay, my ideal not that I necessarily did this my ideal was to be compassionate, to give, to give people, like understand that they needed their own space. Mine happened very, very fast. So it was all of a sudden. It was like we're getting married and like two weeks later, we say we're no like t him or not, and so people have their own reaction.
Sam:So, being compassionate to their reaction and not apologizing, and not taking over any of not assuming guilt or assuming judgment, and so basically like looking at this, like how do I want to hold myself in this? And being intentional about that not that that always is going to happen, at least it didn't for me I had my own emotions. That would happen if someone said something unsupportive. Sometimes it could be like okay, that was a little strange and move on, and sometimes I'd be like are you for real right now? Or like have that privately.
Kat:Yeah.
Sam:But just deciding ahead of time. It helped and more, I think I was able to be the version of myself I wanted to be more because in the back of my mind, ot was like, okay, this is being tested a little bit. Now I can anchor into this and notice like, wow, whenever I talk to this and or this person I don't, or this friend like I feel weird about it, so I'm gonna not talk to them about this right now, like protecting yourself.
Sam:It's not that you can't ever talk to them about this, but whenever you're in the middle of a transition it's vulnerable, and so treat it like that, treat yourself as like, I'm very sensitive right now. I need to give myself extra love, extra protection, extra support until I kind of like, get to a ground in place and then I can handle others, if I, if I decide like there's a reason to have those conversations.
Kat:I like the not apologizing piece because I think that we have a tendency to like downplay our own experiences and our own emotions in the midst of somebody else being uncomfortable, and so like being able to hold the like both, and energy of like, yeah, that person can be upset about this, or that person can be throwing projection Or throwing, you know, some sort of like insecurity or fear at this situation And I could show up in the fullness of my own experience, in my own feelings, and Both can be true.
Kat:Yes, love yeah, oh my goodness, Sam, I feel like we could talk forever, but we do need to wrap this up. Can you please share with folks how they can find you, what kind of support you're offering for your community right now and how we can sort of stalk you on the internet?
Sam:Yes, so people can find me at my Instagram, at Wild River, and my website, www. wildriver. live, and that's the best place to stay in my world. If you want to like, connect or stay in touch, join my newsletter, or follow my podcast. I have a podcast called Wild River. I'm on a brief hiatus as I navigate these transitions. I'll be back in like six weeks and it's great, so that's a great place to kind of feel into my energy or, if you like this, to stay connected.
Sam:I have a few offerings I do as far as like one-off sessions. I offer energy healing And that may be on the way, I haven't decided, but if it is, I'll do group energy healings. I do group workshops and then I offer what I called a 75-minute clarity call. It's like my signature offering. These are the best because we bring in, it can be like a human design reading.
Sam:For those who are like, I want to learn about human design, we can focus on that. We bring intuitive channeling. We do somatic coaching practices, but they're really designed to be like okay, where, what part of your life do you want to move forward or do you want to receive clarity on? It could be anything from, I've had people who are like I'm in a major transition. What should I be focusing on in this season, or how do I figure that out? What are my core values? I'm really struggling with this piece of my confidence. I don't know what I'm good at, whatever it is. I had a baby a year and a half ago and I really want to feel connected to myself and I'm not right now.
Sam:Whatever it is in your life, there is a lot we can do in there. I tend to work with people on themes that are around safety, self-confidence, purpose fulfillment, values, intuition those are like the things that come up very frequently. And then, for those who are ongoing support or like I'm actually moving through a transition and I would benefit from support, I do one-on-one coaching that we meet weekly or bi-weekly, and I bring in all my same kind of intuitive, human design, somatic coaching tools in there perfect thank you so much for having this conversation with me and and for being you and for sharing all of your wisdom with, with the world.
Sam:So this was amazing and so fun. Thank you so, so much for having me. I'm so honored and I'm so happy that we could do this.
Kat:Yay, all righty. Well, we'll chat soon.