Unravel the complex dance between expectation and artistic expression with Creativity Coach Sarah Cook. Together, we navigate the delicate equilibrium of creativity and business, dissecting the challenge of preserving the sanctity of art while running our businesses. Let this conversation be your compass in reclaiming the joy of creativity, delving into the principles of anti-extractivism and the beauty of a dynamic partnership with our creative selves. Sarah's insights promise a wealth of knowledge for not just artists and entrepreneurs, but anyone seeking a deeper connection with their creative spirit.
This episode is a tapestry woven with personal anecdotes, where I share the constant evolution of my relationship with creativity—from the pressures of generational expectations to the transformative power of aligning one's work with their identity. Listen as we contemplate the significance of the words we choose and how terms like 'reciprocity' can reshape our understanding of productivity. These narratives guide us to foster a creative practice that's not only a source of income but a wellspring of personal fulfillment.
If you are listening to this episode before March 13, 2024, I'd love to invite you to join us for a live workshop that Sarah is teaching for my community: Partnering with Your Creativity. The details to sign up can be found RIGHT HERE.
Resources:
Sarah Cook is a neurodivergent writer, poet, and creativity coach. She specializes in helping people reclaim their creative agency so they can make with more ease and enchantment. She writes For the Birds, a Substack newsletter about resilience, the writing life, and the natural world.
Connect with Sarah:
Kat HoSoo Lee is a trauma-informed Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Rooted Business Podcast. She uses the tools of somatic and emotional alchemy to guide soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. This allows them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, ethical marketing and purposeful service.
Connect with Kat:
This podcast is made possible with sound production by Andre Lagace.
Unravel the complex dance between expectation and artistic expression with Creativity Coach Sarah Cook. Together, we navigate the delicate equilibrium of creativity and business, dissecting the challenge of preserving the sanctity of art while running our businesses. Let this conversation be your compass in reclaiming the joy of creativity, delving into the principles of anti-extractivism and the beauty of a dynamic partnership with our creative selves. Sarah's insights promise a wealth of knowledge for not just artists and entrepreneurs, but anyone seeking a deeper connection with their creative spirit.
This episode is a tapestry woven with personal anecdotes, where I share the constant evolution of my relationship with creativity—from the pressures of generational expectations to the transformative power of aligning one's work with their identity. Listen as we contemplate the significance of the words we choose and how terms like 'reciprocity' can reshape our understanding of productivity. These narratives guide us to foster a creative practice that's not only a source of income but a wellspring of personal fulfillment.
If you are listening to this episode before March 13, 2024, I'd love to invite you to join us for a live workshop that Sarah is teaching for my community: Partnering with Your Creativity. The details to sign up can be found RIGHT HERE.
Resources:
Sarah Cook is a neurodivergent writer, poet, and creativity coach. She specializes in helping people reclaim their creative agency so they can make with more ease and enchantment. She writes For the Birds, a Substack newsletter about resilience, the writing life, and the natural world.
Connect with Sarah:
Kat HoSoo Lee is a trauma-informed Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Rooted Business Podcast. She uses the tools of somatic and emotional alchemy to guide soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. This allows them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, ethical marketing and purposeful service.
Connect with Kat:
This podcast is made possible with sound production by Andre Lagace.
Hello, my friends, we get to hang out with Sarah Cook today and she is a creativity coach and she is somebody who has an unusual place in my life. I was just sending you a message. The other was that just last night that I sent you that message. I think it was.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like less than 24 hours ago.
Speaker 1:What is time. So Sarah is an unusual person in my life because she came in through business alchemist mentorship and she has sort of like bridged lots of different realms of now being a collaborator. I attend a lot of her creativity resilient circles. I have plans to, fingers crossed, write something bigger than a Instagram post at some point in my life, potentially a book, and when that happens, I know that Sarah is going to help me do that into the world.
Speaker 1:I'm just not quite there yet, and so I was just reflecting, apparently yesterday, that I'm just so grateful when I get to have these people in my life where we are able to flexibly move through these different roles and hold boundaries in a way that feels expansive and really honors each of our own sort of space holding capacities, and so today I have asked Sarah to come on to our program and chat with us about creativity, partially because I feel kind of like weird saying this out loud, but as somebody who, like, looks at everything through a relational lens, I think you were the first person who it like, actually clicked from you, and you were like you can have a relationship with your creativity, and I was like what?
Speaker 1:So, yeah, thank you for giving my creativity a body of voice, a bit of a sassy voice, and then I've also asked her to come and teach a workshop for my community. So if you're listening to this before March 13, 2024, you can come join us live. We're going to be meeting at 11am Pacific Standard Time. The concept around the workshop is called partnering with your creativity and even if you're listening to this after that date, you won't be able to join us live because at this point we can't really time travel. But you can download the recording and I'm really really excited to have her on the show, have her teach within my community and continue to promote your work, sarah, so welcome.
Speaker 3:What an intro. I love being an unusual person in people's lives. That's like a great role in my mind. And also I really appreciate your candidness around the like, the sort of tension maybe around that metaphor of like having a relationship with your creativity and the way it needed to like click and then it clicked in a really big way for you, because you might recall, I also had initially kind of struggled struggles too strong of a word, but like the idea of being in relationship with my business felt very, very, very abstract to me for a very long time. And I think it wasn't until after BAM that I sent you like a very long voice note and I was like, oh my God, I get it, I get it. Like it didn't click and then, when it clicked, it has now like stayed, clicked in the depths of my soul in such an important way. So I like the sort of like mirroring that's happened for each of us.
Speaker 1:I love it. I've forgotten about that moment for you and just like that, I just remember. I can't remember exactly how you put it, but I just remember the like excitement that you felt to like, like, feel this sort of tangible relationship to your business and, in a way, I feel like I'm still starting to reestablish that with my creativity.
Speaker 1:I don't feel like I'm like searching for it in the same way, but I think that relationships are all different, right, and I haven't gotten the click, as you call it, for me, even when I fell in love with my husband. It was this like slow the light is turning up in the room kind of a sensation, and so I feel like it's similar with my creativity personally. It's not this like lightning bolt, lock eyes from across the room and, like now, I get you sort of a feeling.
Speaker 1:It's more of a like, like let's feel each other out, and like let's see what this is and what's actually here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I love that you're like comparing it to this very important relationship of yours, because that, to me, is demonstrating the way you're engaging with it in this like very relational way. Right, and even this idea that you could be okay having expectations of your creativity that are slower, that are that where you're like not worried, like what you just said. I don't hear any worry in you. At least they're expressing that. It hasn't clicked yet. It sounds like you just kind of know, oh yeah, there's a thing that's unfolding. I'm like heading there slowly. I think that's how a lot of good things function. Yeah, I think that's great.
Speaker 1:Can we dive into expectations? Just because you kind of brought that up. Yeah. I think part of the struggle that I have with creativity and I think that this is probably a common theme for a lot of spiritual entrepreneurs is that because our work is so creative, you know, you can't deny that.
Speaker 1:You know, coming up with curriculum isn't creative like you know, creating workshops, putting writing out there, putting even like I think about social media as this like new, strange art form there's really beautiful, like pieces that people create. And you know, just because you put it up in the digital space doesn't mean that it's no less creative. And, as a spiritual entrepreneur whose creativity is tied to your income, is tied to like a tangible output, how do you manage that dynamic of having expectations of your creativity but then also giving it like a loose enough leash that it doesn't feel stifled and it then doesn't become this like transactional relationship?
Speaker 3:Excuse me. Yeah, I mean I think this is why. So something often that happens when I have, like a new client who finds me. A lot of folks come to me for a lot of different reasons, but a very common one is they have a book that they're wanting to write and they come to me and they have this project and one of the first things I will ask them is okay, what other creative things do you work on other than this book or other than this project?
Speaker 3:And, and you know, sometimes people have answers to that and sometimes they don't, and I'm always a huge advocate that people have other routes in which they're engaging with their creativity and working on things, and even writing, even within the world of writing, like all of your writing, I'm going to say, shouldn't be, you know, funneled into the book or this external facing thing, because I think that creates the kind of pressure that sets us up to have like unfair expectations of our creativity.
Speaker 3:I think we have to be tending it in ways that are not public facing and in ways that are just private, and and that is not to say I mean, you know, sometimes I'm working on something and it becomes a public facing thing or it finds its way into a newsletter. Right, these aren't hard and fast boundaries, but I just think it's sort of like you know, a healthy ecosystem is one that's diverse, like we need diverse expressions of our creativity, even if they're all within the same genre or medium. I just think we have to be tending it in multiple ways because that that like need for play and experiment, like those things are going to look different in the context of paying my bills every month and needing to think about certain things, needing to be discerning about what I'm creating, and so it feels sort of unfair to our creative channel to only tend it within like a business or an external facing context, just like too much pressure on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna take a pause because it sounds like it's gone now. Is there a dryer or something going on in the background?
Speaker 3:There is. Let me go turn it off. Yeah, one second.
Speaker 1:Sweet, good catch, I caught it. Sometimes I've recorded entire episodes and then Andre's been like did you hear that thing in the background? And I'm like no, and then I listen back and I'm like yeah, there was a thing and I just didn't hear it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you know what, not to create too much difficulty, but I am realizing I usually set up my microphone and I didn't. I'm just doing this through my laptop, which I have done before for other podcasts. Do you want me to just plug that in real quick for better sound mode, or okay? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Let me. I'm sure Andre will be yeah with better sound. Sometimes he picks up on sound things that, like I never even like register Like. The reason why I have a sock over my microphone is because he complains about my S's and T's.
Speaker 3:Oh my god, let me, let me grab something real quick. Yeah, is that Ruby again. That is so cute Okay.
Speaker 1:Let me help you. What you're wanting is a fold. I fold it for you, that better. I made you a little nasty right there. Yeah, yeah, there you go. And then you got like a little chin rest. There you go.
Speaker 3:Oh gosh, I'm just thinking my so my outlets on my laptop. Do you have a Mac? It's like they're too close together for me to have two of these like dongles plugged in at once so I can plug my mic in, but then I do have like a light behind my laptop, so I'll just have to unplug that, so I might just be a little darker.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's see what it looks like. Okay, I mean more people listen versus watch on YouTube, so I'm more concerned about sound than I am about.
Speaker 3:Okay. So yeah, it is a little fuzzy now. Gosh, I'm usually more prepared than this, I'm just going to try to get it to work.
Speaker 1:It's all good. It just means that you are not nervous.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I'm just going to try to get it to work.
Speaker 3:That's a that's actually really true, I think what you just said. Okay, let me see. I'm guessing I probably have to change a setting now. Oh, I can't switch mics while we're recording. Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:Well then, let's just leave it. Okay, because we've recorded enough that I don't want to like lose it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:Sweet Okay.
Speaker 3:Sorry about all that here. Let me at least plug my light back in. Okay, Okay A little bit Okay.
Speaker 1:Um, let me pick up where you left off. Hmm, why do I hear myself again Hello, hello, hello, hello, hello. Okay, it's gone now. I don't know why it was picking up on my sound again. Um, I don't know what I'm doing, I'm just going to turn it off.
Speaker 1:Um, hearing you say all that aloud, I feel like there's like something tingly happening with like an inner teenager, inner child, because I think so many well, I shouldn't say so many of us I'll just sort of speak for myself and my own experience of sort of being trained to only put an effort if it's going to have some sort of like payoff at the end. I think growing up it was very much and I think this is a bit of a generational thing and I think it's actually gotten worse with this more recent generation of like you go to kindergarten to get into the good grade school, which then gets you to the good like high school, which then you have to do, you know, cross off all your T's and do all the extra curriculars in order to get to the good college. And you know, I feel like there was like even with the things that I absolutely loved, you know, like I was in okay, so this is like super nerdy version of me, but I'm going to own it.
Speaker 1:I was part of the like future Farmers of America club when I was in high school and we raised like sheep and cows and it's like truly something that I loved and obviously it's something that I continue to love because I want to, you know, be a farmer. I'm like an aspiring farmer.
Speaker 1:But like even with that, it was like, oh, you're doing this. At least the message that I got from my parents was this like, like, oh, you're doing this so that you can put that down as like good extracurricular activity will then help you get into a good school. Or you know a lot of the volunteer work that I was doing around that time was also around, you know, volunteering in veterinary clinics and volunteering in hospitals, and all that was like just to like, rack up the like point total to like get to the thing and it always felt like it was like, oh, like, then that's going to get you to the next thing, and then the next thing, and then the next thing.
Speaker 1:There was never this idea of like, hey, like you can just do that thing, just because it simply brings you joy. You know, which is kind of what I'm hearing with you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Why is my printer doing that? What the hell? Well, now I'm like what is it?
Speaker 3:printing. I'm so curious.
Speaker 1:I don't know what I'm printing. I have no idea. Well, it printed a thing.
Speaker 3:That's wild, so I'll just pick up off of that.
Speaker 1:Andre. So it always is like idea like always be doing something to get to the next thing, and even just you naming hey, like you can just do a thing, even if it's writing, and even if you're craft that you do sort of put out there publicly is writing, you are still allowed to write for the sake of writing, write for the joy of writing or pursue other creative practices that, like, are completely outside of writing, just for the hell of it, because it brings you joy. Yeah, and there's like a part of my like in our teenager that's, that's. I don't know Like it's.
Speaker 1:it's not something that I like is something that I've heard before, but I think I'm getting like an idea of what I'm doing. It's not something that I like, is something that I've heard before, but I think I'm getting like another click of it here, as we're sort of speaking this out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's so hard and it's really why, like, I just think everything comes back to the importance of having an anti capitalist lens for things. Right, because what we're talking about is like value. Like that can things be valuable and we're having a use value outside of like earning us profit, outside of counting or not counting toward our productivity right, we're talking about just like pleasure and creative experience that isn't necessarily always tied to a creative product. It makes me think for anyone who, like has a really hard time leaning into that of just doing something creative for the joy of it. Right, because I know that can feel really sticky.
Speaker 3:Right, because these messages are old and they're also everywhere, and so it's we're like constantly having to swim upstream to like give ourselves permission to do something that isn't productive or that is private or that won't go on our social media, right, so I get that that's hard. I wonder, for those of us who already have like a strong sense of being really like anti capitalist in our practices, if we can like harness some of that in order to tend like a different and more robust relationship with our creativity. Right, because I might feel like, well, I'm definitely anti capitalist in my practices and my business and my entrepreneurship. But I have a hard time creating just for myself. But if I think of that as part of that anti capitalist practice, that could create a different door into that house, right Like that, that could create a different like way to play around with that idea if it feels really tricky.
Speaker 1:I think what you're bringing up for me is, you know, of course everything is a spiritual practice. At least that's how I sort of view things, and you know I've said this many times before where it's like oh yeah, you know, the reason why business is a spiritual practice is because all the things that you thought you worked on outside of business you know attachment stuff hey, you get into business and now here's another way to like learn that thing again. And what I'm hearing you say is, at least the reflection back to me is like I have done a lot of work around being anti extractivist and, you know, creating ethical business practices and really looking at sort of my own place in the like consumer cycle and because there isn't like, because there isn't like money tied to my creativity, at least, not in the like sort of like super direct sense of the word.
Speaker 1:like I'm not an artist, that is now like creating something that people are wanting to purchase. It's like a tangible thing, like I'm seeing this now as like oh, here's another place where you can actually do that anti extractivist work in a different sort of playground, in a different sort of arena.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I kind of I just want to like stay with what you just said a tiny bit longer, because I feel like what we're talking about there's like two pieces of it that are just as important, and the one is, yes, you, you don't need to have anything financial tied to your creativity for it to be worthwhile.
Speaker 3:Period, that's it Like. And I kind of want to challenge what you just said about your creativity not tied to your income, because that when you say that word artist, I know what you mean and even that, though, I see a lot of people who are doing very creative things, but we have this idea of, like the fine arts in our mind like you're writing a novel or poetry, or you're you're taking fancy black and white photographs or you're painting with, like oil or watercolors, and that counts as being an artist. Like I'm really curious about what a modern, inclusive definition of artist might look like, you know, because I can't help but and I'm saying this as your friend, as someone who has received mentorship and coaching from you, as someone who's talked with you about creativity many, many times I don't know that I believe you when you say your, your creativity is not tied to your income.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, thank you for calling that out, because I'm realizing, even just in this conversation I've contradicted myself because I said exactly the opposite at the very beginning, which then, like I don't know, I'm just like, I'm just like show you how this like push pull dynamic that I'm having with my own creativity and that relationship doesn't always feel like it's got super clear boundaries, like it has, you know, the same sort of relationship that I have with my business, like there's this deep trust that I have in my business that like, even when it ebbs, it will eventually flow. You know, I don't think I have the same kind of relationship with creativity, and so then it makes these sort of like concepts and definitions that I place around creativity a little bit murky and sometimes like malleable, and so I really appreciate you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Hey, like that's not actually true, is it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, and I, what I love about this conversation is I I think it's so important to that we just like model and normalize that push pull.
Speaker 3:Like, whether we're talking about creativity or whether we're talking about business, or I'm sure there are other topics we could be talking about too I think that push pull is such an organic part of like reclaiming something on our own terms. Right, you, you are in the business of helping people like reclaim their skills, their entrepreneurship, their desire to serve others, like on their own terms, right, spiritually, professionally, personally, all those things. So I think that is true can be true with our creativity too. Right, like we need to sort of reclaim it from these terms that we've inherited or learned and, you know, picked up in classroom spaces that weren't actually very nurturing all that stuff, and I think so. I think that push pull is so normal and okay, I don't. I don't think these things are just like light switches that we can just turn on and now, now, now I feel better about my creativity and and we're happily ever after, like there's going to be the like expansion and contraction, right, like an inner, like a nervous.
Speaker 1:It's so funny. As you were speaking and this is going to come off a little bit crass I feel like the voice of my creativity was piping up and saying I don't want to be prostituted anymore. Woo.
Speaker 1:And, as I'm like tracking it, it's like I do have a history of turning my creativity into an extractivist thing. Yeah, before you know, one of the very first businesses that I opened up was as a calligraphy artist and I used to do like envelopes for weddings and birthday parties and I also used to write people's like wedding vows up in like really beautiful script and, you know, create art pieces of people's favorite poems, and it was really fun and beautiful in the beginning. But eventually it turned into this thing where it felt very technical and mechanical and like almost like I had like sort of sucked the creativity out of it because it was no longer this like co-creative process with creativity. Was this like people are hiring me to do the thing and then I push out the thing?
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 1:I'm wondering again like full transparency and vulnerability here, like modeling, like I think that there is a little bit of a fear here of Is this beautiful thing that I love, which is business coaching, and I do think that there's a lot of creativity sort of infused in the way that I look at businesses and Look at how we, you know, put them in relationship to our bodies and nature and all that stuff. The last thing I would want to do is to like turn that into a thing that feels Like my calligraphy business, and I don't think I'm anywhere close to that, but I I'm sort of like tuning into my creativity and that's one of the things that's coming through in this conversation. Is this fear of but this is the thing we really love and are super passionate about, and what if we lose that and it turns into a thing that is just turning out Numbers and are you gonna protect me from that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that makes so much sense and I don't even think that messaging that's coming through. It didn't strike me as crass. It feels really accurate and really truthful and I mean it sounds like you loved that early business until you didn't. And I mean, do you feel, can I? So I want to just kind of ask a question about this do you feel like you Started loving it less because of Of something that was taking place in the business, or was that just a sort of natural kind of, you know, ebbing away from something?
Speaker 1:When I go back to that time in my life, it was when I was in grad school. My calligraphy business actually put me through grad school, which is really amazing. And Yet because my expenses were so high during grad school and it was such an I want to say, like quote-unquote easy way to make money Because I could just make my own schedule around it, I could, you know there was a lot that that felt very flexible about it and it was like a pretty high Dollar per hour sort of a job. There was almost this feeling of like I have to. You know, I remember taking on projects at the very end when I was like I really don't want to do this one, like I can go an entire lifetime not hearing or reading or or listening to an ee Cummings poem, like About ee Cummings that people frickin love, but especially I like rafi, that's so funny.
Speaker 1:I was like, if I have to write another ee Cummings poem again, I'm Going to scream. But it was like every time I did that, you know, I was Seeing the money hit my account and and I needed the money at the time, you know. And so it was just this. Like I Mean, I think it feels accurate to like say that I had a very like prostitute, prostitute slash, like a madam energy with Creativity. My creativity was was the prostitute? Yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I think I think it did and I mean it also. I also hear like, oh, it sounds like Again, if we can stay in this space of seeing your creativity, is this thing that you're partnering with? It's like it sounds like that it also like really supported you a lot during that time and did give you some things that you needed and and Then it had a sort of like expiration date for that particular Manifestation of it. I mean it kind of I feel like it's. What you're talking about is also bringing up this other thing that feels really important here, which is like our Creativity over time Necessarily is gonna want to show up in different ways and our enthusiasm for things and our sense of being really devoted to certain practices or Certain projects like that's gonna change and I think those things can end in the same way that, like winter ends and we move into a new season right, and sometimes there's grief there, but it's not bad, like Part of me wants to say.
Speaker 3:Like your current Enthusiasm and love and devotion for the thing you're doing right now, that's the thing to trust more than anything else, and if that feeling changes or goes away, then that will tell you it's time to look for a different route or to reassess things right, but I think you can always Trust that. That like enthusiasm. I actually think that Figuring out like, what are we creatively enthusiastic about is so important to Start having this more robust practice with our creativity and to be thinking outside of like well, what do other people want to see what? What could I sell? What could I make money on? Like just being able to notice and know that there are certain Creative things that we love and feel excited about and want to protect, like giving that lots of our attention is Such an important practice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think too, like when, when we're talking about it in this way, it's it's totally true like my relationship to let's just use calligraphy just to continue that theme has changed completely, where, like calligraphy is now something that I do for myself, something that like itches a part of my ADHD brain in a way that nothing else itches. And you know, I have taken on a couple of like commissioned projects from like close friends, and you know, to me, when I've taken on those projects, like I feel like I can't take money for those projects, I'm either gifting them or I'm asking them to make a donation To a charity. Like I'll pick a subject and be like, can you please send what you would have sent to me to this charity, because I think that my creative process around calligraphy in particular is so tired of being Like used for money, and so I Think that there's a lot of different ways that we can develop different kinds of relationships With each of these things that we do.
Speaker 1:You know, I would say that like other ways that my creative process flows is, you know, when I work with my horses or when I'm doing embroidery or Playing with watercolors, like, and I feel like each of them kind of has like a different spirit. I don't know if you feel that way as well where it's like. You know, my creative business partner has a different and sort of vibe to, like my watercolor creative partner, and that's always sort of like fun to To sort of play with like yeah flavors of your creativity.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and I I really just want to take a minute to really highlight what you shared, because this, this like medium that you originally brought up in this context of oh this, was like a really Extractive creative process for me. I, you know, was doing this calligraphy and Charging too much and it felt bad. And all the things you shared, you've literally now Like you only do it for free and for yourself. Like that's amazing, what, what a what a healing choice that you've made for this thing. Like that's that's really incredible.
Speaker 3:I Feel like, in addition to the sassiness of your creativity that was sort of coming up a little bit earlier like I Imagine there's a lot of gratitude there too, because that's like a pretty startling shift. Like it's I, it wouldn't surprise me if you said, and I never touched a calligraphy pen ever again, right, but instead you're like no, you know, you've like you have like shifted and repaired. It sounds like I mean, I don't know if you'd use that word, but it you've really shifted your relationship with that thing. Like that feels. That feels like a pro move. I.
Speaker 1:Mean, I don't know that I've ever shared the story of, like my calligraphy creative partner out loud before and, you know, really had a chance to notice. I know it's like one of those things with relationships to where it's like it's so easy to take that thing for granted. Mmm. So thank you for noticing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, speaking of taking for granted, like I do think, like I I have been, I think creativity was Honestly, like one of my first coping mechanisms when I was very, very, very young. I I like found the page Very young. I have been writing my whole life and I think if it, you know, coping mechanism, makes it sound a little more fraught than I mean to, but I just Creativity has been such a part of how I understand my own person hood for so long that I think I can sort of like take for granted that not everybody has that relationship, you know, and so I, which I think maybe makes me like a good person to be a mentor and a guide in this field, because I'm just like it's so obvious like it's this thing that helps us see ourselves and we can use it privately and it can ground us and it can anchor us and we can like play with ourselves and, and you know, reflect on who we are in ways, when we're being creative, that we're never, ever, ever going to be able to do in quite the same way anywhere else. I think I'm someone who's always been like just really, really clear on that and and I think I want to like tie this back into this relationship piece.
Speaker 3:So I do think for some of us who don't have that relationship established and tend to assume that our creativity has to fit within these boundaries of you know, what am I using it for? What do I have to show for it? You know, thinking about profit and productivity and all those things. I do think viewing it as more of a relationship again invites us to think about our creativity and ourselves in the same way that we would a partner or a friend or someone else we're in a relationship with, right Like we would not go to the other person and just be constantly thinking about what can I get out of this relationship? How can I use this relationship to increase my monthly profits? You know, it invites us sort of like a benefit of the doubt and more generosity. That I think is really, really necessary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in addition to benefit of the doubt and generosity, I would also add in, it brings in accountability. If I'm going to be asking you know, if we're going to use this as a relationship example, if I'm going to be asking my partner to, you know, do something for me, not in a sort of transactional way, but like in a way that, like I think I would always be asking myself like how can I support you in doing that thing for our team? You know, like, like I guess an actual tangible example of that would be like my husband, who's a bus driver, went through a pretty intensive like commercial drivers like training before he was able to be a bus driver and you know it was like hard for him mentally because he's doing this thing that he's never done before.
Speaker 1:It was really really long hours and you know he was doing it so that our you know family's monthly income would increase, and so in a very way, there is like a transactional piece of him doing this. But I remember asking myself like, okay, so if he's going to do this hard thing for our family, you know, what can I do to like help him out?
Speaker 1:Like and so like packing him lunch and you know, sometimes he'd be really sort of like, like achy sore, and then he'd probably be like I'm going to draw him a bath at the end of the day. And you know, I think that if we can all sort of tend to like our you know, creative spirits or the spirit of our business, or you know again like because it's not really anything, you know, I'm even thinking about, can this apply to my garden? Can this apply to my relationship with my dog, my horses? You know, if we are asking the other, and even if the other is within ourselves, if we're asking that other to do something, that's really hard. I think the devotional practice that we have is how can I support that hard thing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love that. I love that so much. It's just reminding me, too, of, like, how important the words are that we use, because, you're right, what you're describing is a kind of transaction, but that word feels so steeped in the wrong spirit and the word I just kept thinking every time you said it was well, it sounds like reciprocity, which feels so different, right, sometimes, when I'm talking with clients about like tasks and we find ourselves talking like thinking through the framework of productivity, I sometimes want to say, well, let's talk about fruitfulness, not productivity. Right, it's like we're still talking about making something, but we're just like shifting the quality and maybe inviting in, you know, a little bit more of like a nature inspired relationship to it. I don't know, there's just something about thinking about the reciprocity between us and our creativity that feels so much softer and more generous.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. I mean, there's a reason why I ask you to hold so many different roles in my life and even within the life of BAM, I would say because you are a student, you're a member of the community. I've also asked you to be the community moderator for the Slack channel. Anybody who joins BAM gets a subsidized creativity. Reading with you Like this is how important I think that our relationship to creativity is when it comes to our businesses. So, like I'm curious how you would describe this like somewhat polyamorous relationship between ourselves creativity and business.
Speaker 3:That's such a big question. I feel a little intimidated by that question, but I think I actually want to sort of loop back to something I said earlier in the conversation, where I kind of alluded to like not understanding for a really long time that I was in relationship with my business and then when things finally clicked, they clicked in like a really big way, and I don't need to get into all the details of why and how that happened, but the short version of what had happened was I finally realized in a really big way that my business was giving me things and I don't mean like it's earning me money yes, it's doing that but like my business had created opportunities for me to step out into the world with a kind of confidence that I had never had before. It had created opportunities for me to believe, very casually, that I was capable of certain things that I had previously never thought that I was capable of. It also I mean, just to be frank, like it allowed me to work from home during the last year and a half of my cat boots being alive, and if I had not shifted into becoming self employed, I would have lost so much time with him that I ended up having as a result. You know, these things that I like, all the things I just named, were not things that I said I'm going to become self employed because then I'm going to be able to do x, y and z. These were things that were created just almost magically as a result of this process and really feel to me like gifts from this relationship that I'm doing and that, yes, I'm stewarding and tending and have been working really hard and, all you know, doing a bunch of things to move in a positive direction, but so many of the things that it's given me I couldn't have anticipated.
Speaker 3:So there's part of being in relationship with the thing, is like also being the recipient of things, and that feels really important when we're thinking about creativity to, because we're often thinking about what am I making, what am I producing, and also, frankly, just getting stuck in like what I guess I want to describe as like ego concerns, like, oh, is this idea even good enough? Oh, am I, are these poems good? Like you know, we get really stuck in, like assessing quality, and I feel like when we're talking about our creativity and more of a relational aspect and we create this opportunity for us to not only be the people who are, like, in charge and making things and producing things, but we're also receiving things from our creativity. It's again it's like creating an opportunity to maybe bypass some of that judgment, because it's harder to judge. It's easier to judge when I feel like, well, I'm just sitting down and making something and I hope it's good, but when I'm in relationship with something it's different.
Speaker 3:It's often things it creates maybe a little more space for curiosity or a little more space for listening, and if we can just like be in that space with our creativity just for a teeny tiny bit, I think that's when we can very quickly unlock like play and discovery and experimentation and all these things that really need a kind of uncertainty and a kind of openness. So, yeah, there's something about this, this shape of. Can we see our creativity as a thing that we are the recipients of and that we receive gifts from our creativity, and don't we want to tend that? Because, oh my goodness, look at the like joy and possibility that it brings into our life. There's something I don't know how much or little.
Speaker 1:I answered your question, but it brings back that word, reciprocity, that you brought up earlier. You know, if we're in you're totally right like if we're in any sort of stable, secure relationship with something there it's not a one way directional flow, it is both. And I don't think that we like when it comes to business, I feel like a lot of times, if we're looking at it through like the capitalist, extractivist model, there's always this like well, it's got to be paying me back and we diminish the like really, really beautiful gifts that you just named in terms of being able to show up confidently in spaces that you didn't realize that you could show up in.
Speaker 1:And like there's not really a dollar amount that we could put on that, and yet the business has been the vehicle in order to be able to like steward that in your life. You know, and I think that a lot of times people look at their businesses and say it's a failing business or it's not doing as well as I want it to be, because we're only looking at it through this, like one tiny marker.
Speaker 1:And I think that we have a tendency to do that with creativity as well, where we look at it through this like narrow framework of what we can receive for it from it, and anything outside of that, like actual product or anything outside of that like dollar amount that hits our bank account, is somehow diminished. And yeah, I'm just sort of like sitting with like this, like this sort of like swimming feeling of like all the things that.
Speaker 1:I've received from my business and all the things that I've received, also from creativity that is so hard Like and this is part of the reason why, like in BAM, we stress like what are your tangible wins? As well as your tangible wins like? We want to be able to name these things that are unnameable and I feel like that is a act of anti capitalism, like that's a revolutionary act, like name the things that are intangible and say that these things also have immense value.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and to be able to celebrate the things that are harder to account for, harder to measure, like, harder to show the other person even right, like harder to turn into an Instagram tile or harder to like, yeah, account for in our ledger book, you know, to just be able to. I mean, there's this sort of like question of like, well, what do you have to show for it? Right? I feel like what we're talking about is like well, me, I have me to show for it. Like that has to be, that has to be the starting point, and I think that's. I mean, it sounds like nice and fluffy and and maybe like I'm saying that through rose colored glasses, but like, I really mean it.
Speaker 3:Like our creativity, like the thing, the, the way that we can get to know ourselves, create ritual for ourselves, create a kind of like stability of personhood through our set for ourselves, but also practice being in uncertainty and experiment like, like we can tap into those things creatively and I, I think, especially in writing, in a way that we just like can't anywhere else and, in fact, for people who are like, still like, but I, I want something to show for this. It's like okay, we can have this like really robust relationship with our creativity and build skills that we can then bring to other places in our lives. You know, we can like hone our quality of attention. A better quality of attention is only going to serve us as as business people as well. You know, we can like develop new ways for approaching problems.
Speaker 3:We can like practice being comfortable with things that don't make sense and then maybe pull a little bit of that into the rest of our life, where we're often going to encounter things that don't make sense in our heart, because that's just like part of being a human right. It's like it's so. It's so at the core for me of like just how I move through my days and I think anybody who is not tending an active relationship with their creativity. It doesn't feel optional to me. It feels like oh no, you're missing out on something fundamental. I really think that.
Speaker 1:I love this. I really need to pee. Can we take a really good one? Yeah, I took notes. I took notes because I know exactly where I want to take it, but beautiful beautiful so thanks, of course, this is so good and I need to pee, so bad can you hear me hello, hello oh you're, you froze for a second hello am I good now?
Speaker 3:I can hear you right now sweet.
Speaker 1:I was just saying thank you because that was so, so good what you just said, and, oh my god, I need to pee so bad. Yeah, green tea before recording is a fantastic idea.
Speaker 1:Hmm bodies what I need yeah so I love what you just said and the thing that I'm sort of like okay, so I'm obsessed with soil right now, because the stage that my farm is at right now is I am farming, soil is sort of how I think about it, and because everything that I want to do in the future is going to be reliant on the health of the microbiome, the health of the soil. What I put into the soil, everything is like it just points back to soil, and this is a really big tenet of regenerative farming practices is it's less about you know what companion plants are you putting next to each other and what are you growing and what are the conditions. It's like.
Speaker 1:If you can get your soil down, like all the other stuff is going to be easy and so for those of us who are saying I still want the thing, you know, like it doesn't diminish that desire, because I want to grow my own tomatoes one day and like, if I'm thinking about it realistically, I'm probably not going to get decent tomatoes out of my garden for another two years or so and that is because I really feel the, the responsibility and the importance of tending to soil in this way that feels really regenerative, that feels like is not going to take away from the land, like my relationship with the land is so important that I don't want to like make her feel like I'm like stealing from her and rather it's more about like how can I add to the dynamics of the land?
Speaker 1:and so if we're, if we're looking at it with this context, I'm like, oh like.
Speaker 1:Creativity is the soil and and then when we tend to the soil, it then makes it so that it's going to support all the business things that I want to do down the line, you know. So you know whether it is I want to grow tomatoes, or I want to grow flowers, or I want to, you know, grow like a native pasture, like all of that stuff is completely possible, despite the fact that those are very, very divergent plans because of the tending of the soil and the tending of the creativity. And so to me it's like like, if we're going to talk about this, like you know, a polyamorous relationship between you and creativity and like your business, it's like it's all this like great cycle of reciprocity that really asks us to develop relationship with like these really sort of like like base foundational pieces that like we cannot ignore.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and and these things that we might assume either consciously or subconsciously, are in competition are not actually in competition. It's not. It's also not like I'm saying, well, I've given up the life of making money and having anything that looks at all like success and instead I'm just the like living the star, the myth of the starving artist or whatever you know. Like I, I love a lot of my different creative projects. One of my favorite ones is my sub-stack newsletter for the birds. I love when people pay me for that. That's great. Like I have paid subscription options and that's like one of the most exciting things in the world to me. When people sign up and pay me for my writing, like that's great. Right, that me doing that does not discount all these other things I'm talking about. And all these other things I'm talking about do not mean that I can't have a paid model, subscription model for my newsletter, right? It's like All of these things can serve the other. They're not in competition.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I think that again it goes back to that word of reciprocity. It's like when we take things out of this like competitive model, we start to actually see that everything supports everything else. You know, cause you know if I'm thinking about the soil of the garden, if I'm thinking about the soil of the business. It's like, yeah, you're going to have to develop a healthier relationship with money, because we all come into this work with money wounds.
Speaker 1:You know you're also going to have to develop a healthier relationship with boundaries, because you know you're going to be in relationship with other humans.
Speaker 1:You know whether it's clients or collaborators you're going to have to develop, like, like there's so much that goes into that soil and a lot of times we look at other people's businesses and be like how did you grow that amazing tomato? And it's like you didn't see the like tending and the health of the soil and all the work that went into it beforehand. And I think that creativity and relationship to creativity is like one of these, like fundamental things. I would say it's as important as like manure that we're adding into the soil to like make it as robust and nutritious as possible.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, there's something here too. I feel like I'm not very active on Instagram right now, but I feel like I recently had a day where I just had a very strong upset opinion and needed to go and like post something about it. I think I posted something about this feeling that like it's okay if part of our creative labor is invisible, like which is not. I don't mean it in like a dismissive way, but I mean like so much of the good work is invisible, like everything doesn't need to fit into. I'm saying I'm using that word in a way that's like invisibility is really big and sometimes visibility can be really small, and it's like we don't need to fit all that stuff into again.
Speaker 3:This thing that we like can prove or sell or post about. It's like the devotion that I feel, like you and I have been talking about. This whole conversation has to do with a lot of things that are private or quiet or slow, really slow, and like how do you make slow good things visible? How do you like I can't like take pictures of all the amazing things happening underground when the soil is overwintering and there's like bugs doing great shit down there? You know it's like we can't see that, but it's happening. All that stuff is happening before the thing sprouts right. So it's again. This is why it's like, oh my God, all of this has to do with anti-capitalism. Like we have to value the things that we can't readily see even and we have to just like practice, knowing that that is normal and good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that that's where I get like irritated with a lot of business coaching is it's so focused on the like the fast artificial growth of the thing that's only on the surface of the earth. You know, instead of really emphasizing, hey, like you might be in a relationship with this business for like a decade or more, you know, and if that's gonna be true, then can we look at what's happening as like a compounding effect? You know, Instead of it being this like I gotta get out of here real quick, or like get in and get out real quick, you know, which is sort of the energy that I feel from a lot of.
Speaker 1:it's why I've had to unfollow so many business coaches Like is because everyone's saying the same thing about how easy it is to turn in an online business and like, go ahead, try it if it's so easy.
Speaker 1:go give it a try and see how easy it is, because it's incredibly hard, you know, and the reason why we're being sold this idea of online coaching being this like easy business is because then you'll sign up for that person's you know workshop or program or whatever. And I'm here to tell you like this is hard and I will choose this hard over and over and over again, because it is so connected to who I am and the medicine I'm supposed to put out into the world. And there's like an undeniable truth in that for me is like you get to choose your hard. And so, in the context of choosing your hard, like, which hard do you wanna choose? You know, I'd say that being an acupuncturist was also hard. It was just a different kind of hard and you know, like if we're constantly looking for just comfort when it comes to our work, I think you'll end up like taking dozens of courses from other people and, you know, trying to escape what you might consider to be a life of suffering.
Speaker 1:But it's like, rather, I would so much rather say like, hey, it's gonna be hard and I love this hard, the same way that I would say that about my creativity. Yeah, and this relationship with creativity as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, well, and I think in both cases the hard stuff is integral to the joyful stuff too. It's like, though all those things exist on the same sort of more depthful, more complex, more challenging level. Like I just keep wanting to say like easy is too easy, like no, like we want something like depthful and complex and rich and authentic, right? I think also, what we're describing is like a realer relationship with both of these things, and it's so funny to me how I just feel like everything we've said we could say about business and we could say about creativity, like this shape of how we're talking about relating to these two things. It's just so interesting and neat to me to see how those like the mirroring between those. You know, it's surprising.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's a coincidence that, like, I feel like there's like a yin to my yang, yang to my yin, sort of a piece here, because it's like you have a more developed relationship with creativity, which is what I'm craving, and I have a more developed relationship with business, which is also what you're craving, and so like, in this reciprocity of relationship between the two of us, it's like we get to support each other in the thing that we have less experience with, even though we're kind of talking about the same thing. You know and like to sort of continue to like like flesh out this point around. The depth and the meaningfulness of these relationships is like I am now going to be entering my forties very soon. I am no longer interested in relationships that are like dopamine inducing. I'm fine with these. Like little dopamine hits here and here and there but like.
Speaker 1:I want to create relationships with people, with my business, with land, with all the things that are more on the line of serotonin which means that it is inherently going to be less flashy.
Speaker 1:It's inherently going to be less, like, you know, sympathetically, sort of activating. And perhaps, you know, maybe, if I circle it back to like what I was saying at the very, very beginning of our conversation around this relationship with creativity and I don't always trust it all the time I feel like it kind of ebbs and flows and yet I'm not like trying to like quick-start it, like I know that I've done that before and you know whether that's through, you know, feeling really disconnected to my creativity, and then going on like a mushroom trip or like finding artificial ways to like kick-start it that don't feel like it's coming from, like an internally generated place. I'd rather just sort of like say I'm here for the long haul, you know like.
Speaker 1:I'm ready. When you are, I'll be here. It's a lot of the ways in which I relate to horses as well, like I have Winnie, who's been abused in her life, and like I have no desire to have her do anything other than be herself. And it's this like very slow, like it took me eight months to even be able to touch her.
Speaker 1:It's been this like very, very slow progression of building trust, and I feel like that's however this relationship with creativity unfolds. That's the kind of dynamic that I want to foster and that's the kind of dynamic that I want to cultivate.
Speaker 3:Mm, and that's such a good example because it's so clear and obvious to you in your relationship with Winnie. Like, why would you do anything to scare her? Why would you have unreasonable expectations of her? Why would you? You know, it's like, oh that we can, like, you can pick that up and like, place it onto your creativity as well, right, like, oh, why do we? I mean, I know why we do, because we, like, are taught and conditioned to view it otherwise, but we can practice finding that just as preposterous, right, why?
Speaker 3:would I expect my creativity, like why would I expect myself to rush or to need to do anything, or to have to have some like very specific version of success that is measurable in a certain way? I mean, why would we have those expectations of ourselves or of our creativity? You know, it seems we can practice seeing it as just as silly, until it just seems silly, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I love it. Well, just to give people context, you know I shared that you're gonna be teaching a workshop for BAM.
Speaker 1:It is open to the public and so you know, if it's before March 13th 2024, people can sign up and hang out with us live, and if it's after that time, then people can listen to the recording, and I'm sure that that's gonna be just as exciting and invaluable. Sometimes, actually, I find that, with your gatherings in particular, there are times when I just like wanna pause the conversation to like actually like integrate it and digest it, and so I don't know, maybe the recording will be helpful for folks, but can you give us a little bit, just like, of a framework, what people can expect from that workshop? And I'll make sure that all those links are in the show notes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's gonna be two hours of us just being together and being really curious and sort of playing within the same world of ideas that we've talked about here, right? So thinking about, well, if I really do want to be in relationship with my creativity, what are some tangible practices I can harness in order to do that? So we're gonna be thinking about collaboration spirit, of collaborating with our creativity. We're gonna be talking a little bit about paying attention, the quality of our attention that we bring to our creative channel, and we'll be talking about trust as well. So, using these as our kind of like guiding qualities, we'll do some sort of group reflection, we'll generate some ideas, there'll be some guided writing, which will be, for me, kind of like the highlight of the workshop a chance for us to be curious together about these things and then turn to the page and see what's maybe showing up for us.
Speaker 3:I think, hopefully, by the end of the two hours, we will be in a kind of nourished space and we'll feel like a little bit more intimacy with our creativity and we will have also generated some like pretty specific and personalized ideas around how to maybe like keep unfolding that and keep tending that. So, yeah, whether you attend live or catch the replay. I think it'll be a pretty nourishing time, so yeah, Love it.
Speaker 1:So, as I said earlier, I'll make sure to have the correct links in the show notes, but if you just wanna like hop straight over, I'm gonna have all that on cathosucom and if you just click down to the little bar tabby thing that says workshops, and it'll be right in there. And for those of you who want to continue to connect with Sarah, I don't know how many times I wanna like stand on my own personal mountaintop and tell people to like sign up for your newsletter because I get so much out of it. And one of the things that I'm in awe of is how prolific of a writer you are. I think that I tend to and maybe this is just like both of our sort of many gents coming through, there's a part of me that's like man. I thought that like I was a prolific writer, and then look at what you're putting out and the quality that you're putting out and I'm like I would need so much quiet time to come to these like reflections that you're coming up with.
Speaker 1:I really truly do love your newsletter, and I'm not afraid to say that I will continue to pay for and elevate a number of your writing.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, that's. I really appreciate you mentioning that and using that word prolific. And just to be really super clear, given the conversation we just had, like that prolificness is not me meaning deadlines or like profit driven goals, like that has happened very organically because of my devotion to my writing practice and I started that newsletter before I became self-employed. Even it was not about it originally, had nothing to do with anything other than I love to write. And here's this new like venue through which for me to do that and share it regularly. So, yeah, I really appreciate that reflection.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna take a quick pause here. You just I think I caught what you said when you asked or when you gave me that compliment, but you did glitch a little and I did. It went away. But I got a message saying that like there were some connection issues for a second.
Speaker 1:I got the same thing and I think it's okay, because whatever side will upload it to your computer and then upload it to the cloud, so we'll get a much cleaner recording Okay. All the good stuff is gonna go away.
Speaker 3:Okay, so had you, I just it. I think I caught what you said, but you hadn't asked me a question, right? Or had you asked where people could find me, or was it?
Speaker 1:Let me ask it again.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:Because I feel like I did ask you, but I don't know. We'll have to play with it in the edits. So, my dear, before we log off, are there any sort of like last minute little nuggets that you want to throw in here? Slash, how can people find you on the web?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I just I want to thank you for this conversation. It's been so wonderful and I want to thank you again for this like wonderful, dynamic relationship that we're in Coach, steward of creativity, friend all the wonderful things in all the directions. So, yeah, you're a very special and unusual person in my life as well, kat. And yeah, people can find me obviously hanging out in the BAM community and hosting the workshop and then at my website, sarahtarisacookcom. All my stuff is linked there, including my sub-stack, but you can go directly to my sub-stack at sarahcooksub-stackcom.
Speaker 3:And I'll just mention quickly since I made it live yesterday, I did create a new free resource that I'm pretty excited about. It's called Creative Resilience. It's this four-week sort of self-guided course that you can sign up for and it'll walk you through four of the big main concepts that come up again and again in my one-on-one work with clients and in my own creative practices, just with an eye toward building a more resilient relationship with our creativity. So there's a button on my website that you can click and snag that for free if you're interested. So pretty excited about that.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. And for those of you who are listening via the podcast, that is Sarah with an H and Teresa without an H. So, sarahtarisacookcom, yes and yeah.
Speaker 3:Thanks a lot.
Speaker 1:All righty, my dear Well, thank you so much for joining and I hope we get to see some new and familiar faces during our workshop and excited to continue being in this unusual relationship with you.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, all the unusual good things. Yes, love you so much, kat.
Speaker 1:Love you right back honey.