As the first month of the year sweeps in with its gust of self-improvement demands, we—Kat and Lindsay—invite you into our conversation about the relentless tug-of-war between aspirations and the realities of self-discipline. Have you ever found yourself caught in the undercurrent of 'should', where every cell in your body resists the societal pull towards productivity, yet your mind chastises you for every unproductive moment? Together, we walk through the shadows of perfectionism that linger from childhood, discussing how they shape our lives and contribute to the anxiety that often comes with the pursuit of a polished exterior.
Our journey doesn't stop at the surface struggles; we plunge into the deep waters of shame, guilt, and self-doubt. Sharing stories close to our hearts, we shine a light on the often-invisible burden these emotions place on our day-to-day lives, from the dishwasher left unloaded to the gym membership card gathering dust. We grapple with the dichotomy of desire and guilt, the magnetic pull of both, and how they shape our relationship with self-discipline. Our candid tales weave through emotional resistance to exercise and the surprising revelations of bodily communication, hoping to strike a chord with those who have ever felt the weight of their own expectations.
As we wrap up this episode, we turn the lens towards self-compassion and balance. We reflect on our own journeys with exploringthe delicate dance of managing weight in a way that honors our health and well-being while not bypassing the emotional tumult of communicating with our bodies, . Embracing the Yang energy of new beginnings, we ponder the nuanced interplay of hormones, stress, and self-care, offering insights into a more harmonious way of navigating life's intricacies. Join us for a heartfelt exchange that promises more than just solace—it offers a shared path to understanding and, hopefully, a little laughter along the way.
Lindsey Lockett is a trauma educator and coach who specializes in working with the autonomic nervous system. Through private and group coaching and one-of-a-kind workshop experiences, Lindsey guides her clients and students toward building trusting relationships with their bodies. She is the host of the Holistic Trauma Healing podcast and lives on the North Shore of Lake Superior on her 5-acre homestead with her husband, 2 teenagers, 2 dogs, and 10 chickens.
Connect with Lindsey:
Kat HoSoo Lee is a trauma-informed Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Rooted Business Podcast. She uses the tools of somatic and emotional alchemy to guide soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. This allows them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, ethical marketing and purposeful service.
Connect with Kat:
This podcast is made possible with sound production by Andre Lagace.
As the first month of the year sweeps in with its gust of self-improvement demands, we—Kat and Lindsay—invite you into our conversation about the relentless tug-of-war between aspirations and the realities of self-discipline. Have you ever found yourself caught in the undercurrent of 'should', where every cell in your body resists the societal pull towards productivity, yet your mind chastises you for every unproductive moment? Together, we walk through the shadows of perfectionism that linger from childhood, discussing how they shape our lives and contribute to the anxiety that often comes with the pursuit of a polished exterior.
Our journey doesn't stop at the surface struggles; we plunge into the deep waters of shame, guilt, and self-doubt. Sharing stories close to our hearts, we shine a light on the often-invisible burden these emotions place on our day-to-day lives, from the dishwasher left unloaded to the gym membership card gathering dust. We grapple with the dichotomy of desire and guilt, the magnetic pull of both, and how they shape our relationship with self-discipline. Our candid tales weave through emotional resistance to exercise and the surprising revelations of bodily communication, hoping to strike a chord with those who have ever felt the weight of their own expectations.
As we wrap up this episode, we turn the lens towards self-compassion and balance. We reflect on our own journeys with exploringthe delicate dance of managing weight in a way that honors our health and well-being while not bypassing the emotional tumult of communicating with our bodies, . Embracing the Yang energy of new beginnings, we ponder the nuanced interplay of hormones, stress, and self-care, offering insights into a more harmonious way of navigating life's intricacies. Join us for a heartfelt exchange that promises more than just solace—it offers a shared path to understanding and, hopefully, a little laughter along the way.
Lindsey Lockett is a trauma educator and coach who specializes in working with the autonomic nervous system. Through private and group coaching and one-of-a-kind workshop experiences, Lindsey guides her clients and students toward building trusting relationships with their bodies. She is the host of the Holistic Trauma Healing podcast and lives on the North Shore of Lake Superior on her 5-acre homestead with her husband, 2 teenagers, 2 dogs, and 10 chickens.
Connect with Lindsey:
Kat HoSoo Lee is a trauma-informed Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Rooted Business Podcast. She uses the tools of somatic and emotional alchemy to guide soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. This allows them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, ethical marketing and purposeful service.
Connect with Kat:
This podcast is made possible with sound production by Andre Lagace.
Hello everyone, welcome back to our monthly show. I'm Kat, I'm Lindsay and this is another episode of Webs of Truth, which is a sub-podcast of both of our podcasts. So Lindsay's got the Holistic Trauma Healing podcast and I've got the Rooted Business podcast. So if you like these conversations, go check out either of ours. But today we are going to dive into and as always, this is going to be a meandery sort of conversation, but we're going to dive into the should story. We're going to dive into the parts of us that feel like they need to do all the time that need to always be. For me, it's performing and saving and fixing and how we can be with these parts of ourselves. And, yeah, I'm sure this is going to just take a lot of interesting turns as we chat it away.
Speaker 2:And isn't it interesting that we're having this conversation in January, at a time of year when people are like I need to do all these new things in my life, I need to lose weight and I need to exercise and I need to eat better and I need to fix this about myself and fix that about myself, and so I find that really interesting too, that this is the time of year we're having this conversation and it's very antithetical to that narrative.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, and I just hosted my Dallas Lunar Circle this last week and the energy of this moment in our cycle of the year. We used the hexagram number 24 to describe it and it's called the Return, and it's about the return of Yang, because we've just passed Winter Solstice, which is complete Yin, and as we start to go into that Yang space, I feel like, because our culture is so geared towards Yang and doing and performing, and being outward and external, we don't know how to be in this liminal space of the in-between, which is, for me, there's a certain level of doing that we're starting to get into and we're starting to lay down some plans, but none of it needs to be in concrete, in stone yet, and I feel like that's a really, really hard place for people to be in. Is that space between the dreaming and the doing? Is there's an entire universe in between those two places?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I definitely have a doer part, as we were discussing before we hit record on this. I don't know where my doer stops and my fixer starts. They're like Siamese twins. I feel like they are one and the same for me. And, yeah, just over the last couple of weeks, I've just been noticing a lot of background noise in the back of my mind of the chatter of oh my gosh, there's nothing to do right now, there's nothing to fix right now, there's nothing to heal right now, there's no problem, everything is actually okay and life feels relatively easy right now, but then that noise in the back of my head is still there. And I don't do fucking New Year's resolutions.
Speaker 2:The most New Year's-y thing that I do is I allow a word to drop in and I just make that my intention for the year. So my word for 2023 was congruent and I felt like, in a lot of ways, my body was just calling me back into being congruent with myself and with my desires and who I say I am and my integrity and stuff like that. And what's really interesting is that I have had such a resistance to exercise and movement for three years now and I actually feel quite a lot of shame about it, because it doesn't feel congruent for me to feel like my feet are planted in this concrete mud of not moving. Now I do move with dance and stuff. I do that, but my body has been very specifically asking me to lift weights and I start and then I stop, and then I start and then I stop, and I just don't stick with it consistently. And so, of course, because it's end of December, beginning of January that's coming, and a full force for me of like it's that time of year, and so the word that keeps dropping in for me for 2024 is self-discipline and just me recognizing that it actually takes quite a lot of self-discipline to become congruent sometimes with oneself.
Speaker 2:And but yeah, I would love to be able to drop in to congruency with myself in a way that doesn't feel like there's so much fucking resistance, because the voices in the back of my head, that background chatter, are literally only mirroring what's happening outwardly in the world, particularly in the United States right now, which is, make your resolutions and, like you know, sign up for, join the gym and hire the nutritionist and like, do all these things so you can lose weight and get fit, and like manage your time better and don't spend so much time on social media. And, like we all know, because it's just not sustainable to like go from not being in these like patterns of movement or eating well or whatever Like, if that's not an established pattern, you don't like. The clock doesn't strike midnight on December 31st and boom, it's a new year. And all of a sudden it's like the motivation and the discipline and the like. It doesn't just appear overnight, but but there's a voice in the back of my head that's like what the fuck is wrong with you? Yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1:No, no, I will a I. The Gregorian New Year has always felt a little bit disjointed for me, and so I celebrate the Lunar New Year. That seems like it's a more which is when this year it's February 21st, so it changes a bit every year, and so to me that's like when spring is starting and that's when the momentum is shifting and where I naturally want to start like moving and doing a little bit more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, seasonally it just doesn't make sense right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then I think that that should voice. I'm playing with this concept a lot myself in this moment as well, because I'm starting to look at these things that I think I should do and then zooming out and being like, ok, so what's the? What do I actually want to happen here? You know, and for me, I've struggled with movement as well in my life. Like I do movement well, when I have something that I'm doing like an activity, like I love hiking and I love being active. And you know, I used to play roller derby and when I was playing roller derby I would say I was pretty athletic.
Speaker 1:And now, in the last 10 years, since I've stopped being an athlete, it's been hard to get motivated into doing things again. You know, and as I'm starting to creep towards my forties and you know, the body changes and I sat down and I was like what do I really want to happen? You know, and ultimately what I want is I just want to feel stronger in my body. And I started noticing this year that it was like harder for me to get up from, like sitting on the ground and I was like that's unacceptable, like that's not cool. And you know, we bought this property and I started thinking about like, well, maybe I should start going to the gym so that I can like actually start doing stuff around the property. And you know what? I pick up probably 100 pounds of poop, horse poop every single day and I'm moving hay and I'm carding water and to me, like that has turned into my gym.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you don't need to go to the gym.
Speaker 1:And then, like, the natural progression is that, because I'm doing sort of these like repetitive moments, like I want to stretch my body, like my body is craving, like yoga and stretching, because I need some sort of like alternate way of moving my body, and so I started thinking about these things in terms of like okay, so, like what's the end product? And like does it have to look a particular way to get myself there? You know, I'm starting to see it with my training with my colts as well, because right now they just got gilded and so they just basically got castrated for non horse people and they need to have their circulation moving and so I need to be exercising them 10 to 15 minutes a day, which just means that I need to make sure that they're trotting for 10 to 15 minutes a day, and their horses are actually like pretty lazy, if you like. Leave them to themselves.
Speaker 1:And for the first couple of days, I was essentially like chasing them around the arena, like with a flag, and just being like you guys have to move, and like I felt really aggressive and mean doing that and it's not the way that I want to train, it's not the way I want to establish my training relationship with these guys, because they're only eight months old right now, and yesterday it dawned on me I was like the only thing I need to do is get them to move.
Speaker 1:I wonder, if I started running around the arena, if they would follow me. And they did. And so, like it can be, it can look so different from like like that's not what a regular horse trainer would tell me to do. A regular horse trainer would tell me to do what I had initially started, which is chase them around the arena. But because it didn't feel good in my body and the end result is essentially like the same of like getting my horses to move, like why the fuck does it matter what it looks like? You know, it matters how it feels. And so I think that when we get caught up in these like should stories, I think it's worth zooming out a bit and being like hey, like what do I ultimately want and need to happen here, and can we get there in a way that feels good and in alignment and in congruence, to use your word, with with how I want to live my life, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and similarly with my word for 2024, like self discipline. You know, coming from evangelicalism and also growing up in a physically abusive home where there was like spanking, but it was being beaten with a belt, essentially, but it was called spanking. Like you know, I there was a long time in my life where I didn't know how to feel pleasure apart from guilt and shame, and I've done a pretty good job of like dissecting those apart and, like now I can experience pleasure without guilt and shame. But now I'm realizing, like, do I know how to experience self discipline without punishment? Like, do I?
Speaker 2:know the difference between discipline and punishment? Um yeah, I don't know. I'm just throwing that out there because I don't have an answer to that question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean. I think that we have a tendency, when we grow up with particular scary patterns, to like throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Speaker 2:I do that for sure.
Speaker 1:You know this is a little bit different from what you're experiencing, but I see this a lot in my clients, where they grew up with anger in their family and so, because anger was such a scary emotion for them as a kid, they then prevent themselves from feeling anger, even when it is absolutely necessary and appropriate, and we have a tendency to sort of like pendulum swing of like, oh, I had so much discipline growing up and so now I'm gonna give myself all the freedom when there's actually a healthy balance in between. That would benefit you. And so I love that you're exploring this space of discipline without punishment or shame or guilt, and that's gonna be a really interesting journey. I'm excited for you to start exploring that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, yeah, me too. I haven't started yet. I mean, I've barely started, I guess. But yeah, it's like I've also been thinking a lot. Maybe it's because I turned 40 this year, but I've been thinking off and on this year about how I used to be when I was in my like 20s and very early 30s.
Speaker 2:I was a stay at home mom and I homeschooled my kids, and because I was in the church for the majority of that time, there was this umbrella of like what womanhood is in Christianity and that involves a lot of your house looking a certain way and you dressing a certain way and your children behaving a certain way and you're entertaining people in a certain way and being a pastor's wife.
Speaker 2:That comes with its own set of roles and responsibilities and, like I, just my current self looks back at that version of me and I'm literally genuinely like where did the energy come from? Where did it come from? Because if I even tried today to do half of what I would do in a day when I was like, say, 25, and I don't mean physical fitness, that's not what I'm talking about at all, because I wasn't going to the gym either Then I'm talking about, like, the amount of like cleaning and cooking and taking care of children and my house, looking perfectly and entertaining people a couple or three times a week and showing up for church and getting up early and getting kids dressed and like all of that kind of stuff. Like I think about that now and it makes me exhausted and I just and I don't believe that the lack of energy maybe there's a better explanation for it, but I don't believe that it's from age, like I truly do not believe it's from age.
Speaker 2:I agree. Like it's almost like I don't even know what it's almost like, honestly it's. I just I'm not even amazed by myself and I'm not comparing my current self to that past version and being like, oh, you're not doing enough, like you need to do more. I'm like I feel sorry for her Cause. I'm like, oh my God, like no wonder you burned yourself out.
Speaker 2:Like you are nuts you know, and nobody had to tell me what to do. Like this was before Instagram. I wasn't on Facebook at this time in my life. Like I wasn't getting messages from social media influencers that were creating this like sense of comparison and not enoughness and shitting and like as a wife, you should be doing like it was all coming from, like the church. But there was a fair amount of it that was coming from my like inner critic who is cracking the whip Like you're not doing enough, you're not perfect enough, your house isn't clean enough, your kids aren't well dressed enough, like.
Speaker 2:And now I don't have that inner critic cracking the whip as loudly, but it still shows up and I don't really know what this has to do with anything, but it's like I guess I just feel like I need to say out loud it's not an age thing where I'm like slowing down because I'm getting older.
Speaker 2:It's more like I had absolutely no balance in my life in my 20s and early 30s and I was so focused on doing and perfectionism and, honestly, like I didn't even clean my house back then for other people, even though I entertained quite a lot. I did it for myself, because if I could clean my whole house in a day and there were like perfect vacuum tracks in parallel lines on the carpet and the tile, grout was all white again and all the dishes were put away and everything was like in its place and orderly and tidy. That's when I would just like sit on the couch and I could feel peace in my body, and so like the cleaning and the doing was a means to experience this relief from anxiety. If that makes sense.
Speaker 2:It was like I did not know how to be at peace within myself until I did all of these things to my external environment to create peace and order, and then I could sit down on the couch and look around and admire my clean house and actually feel really good. And I guess I just don't need that anymore, like I don't need to beat myself up, I don't need to punish myself or perform or do in order to feel okay within myself. And yet over the last few weeks the voice in the back of my head very background, it's not like super loud, but the voice in the back of my head is still like you're not doing enough, you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:First of all, I mean not with my house and it's not with my house. It's like you're not doing enough to be physically fit. You're weak. You need to be stronger. You need to be skinnier, like that's what the voice, but it's not loud, it's not yelling it, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, first of all, I resonate so hard with this. I look back at, you know, and it wasn't even that long ago. For me it was like when I was living in Vancouver and working 60 hours a week, 50 to 60 hours a week. And then, you know, and then my partner at the time, andre and I had a farm on top of that and so, like, like, we were just doing all the time and he worked a full time job too, and I guess, and I think, that a lot of people resonate with this story as well but for you, what was the motor? That was sort of like driving the inner critic.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't know if it's the motor that was driving the inner critic, but the motor that was providing the energy for me to go, go, go and do all of this stuff was absolutely 100% anxiety. It was like a chronic flight response of needing to be busy and doing something and moving all the time Like it could not be, still, could not be, still. I don't know if that's the motor or you know, I don't know. It feels like a negative feedback loop. It's like the inner critic was like there because of my upbringing and like the standards of perfectionism that were placed on me by both my parents and the church, and at the same time, those standards and perfectionism also created a lot of anxiety. So it's like the chicken or the egg. Which one came first, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, and we internalize these stories around like and I know that you've talked about you know, if you were doing something wrong, you would then do something to like make sure that you would gain approval from your mom and go into like doing and fixing mode. And you know, same thing happened to my family, and you're right, it is this like negative feedback loop of like perfectionism that drives the anxiety which then creates the energy which then, you know, makes it possible for us to like run our adrenals so that we can then do all the things. And then you add in the validation you get from society Like I was getting so much validation from people at work being like, oh my gosh, I don't know how you're able to do all of that and so then how do you get your house so perfect?
Speaker 2:You're toddlers, right, because I'm psycho, brenda, that's how Right.
Speaker 1:Because I have so much anxiety and I can't sit still.
Speaker 2:I'm running on cortisol sugar, yeah, yeah, and I mean, there was also a fair amount of like. Let's be honest, I'm curious as to whether it's for you too, but of course, all of this awareness is coming from after the fact.
Speaker 2:I was so completely asleep at that time of my life. If you would have asked me this, then I would have been, like, what the fuck are you talking about? I'm fine, yeah, like. So you know? Hindsight, this awareness is coming from hindsight, but like. Yet there was also this like I have to earn my way to rest. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Like I can't just sit on my couch and do nothing if there's not vacuum tracks in the carpet, if dinner's not made, if the house is a mess, if the tile grout needs to be bleached with a toothbrush. Like I can't rest because all of these things have to be done. I can only rest once these things are done. So it's like this narrative of you are not worthy of rest unless you do all of these things first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then Law of Entropies says that we like, as soon as it's done, it starts to degrade and become messy again, because you know that's how the universe works, is?
Speaker 1:It always dissolves into chaos.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I mean same thing of like, like when I was growing up I had school and I had homework and I had extracurricular activities, and in Korea if you are of school age, you go to after school, which is called hagwon, and so when I go visit Korea and I hang out with my cousins, sometimes they don't get back from like learning things until like eight or nine o'clock at night, right, and like in America I had it a little bit easier, but my parents, my mom, still managed to find like a I don't know if any Korean immigrant kids are out there, but like we had a program called kumon, which was essentially like a hagwon in America, and so I had you know school and all the things, and then I also had like we used to call it like mom homework, where, like, I had to then after school do even more like homework and like worksheets and things like that, and then I could go play.
Speaker 1:And so I think that that, like my parents now, I think, would even to this day call it like a work ethic that got instilled in me. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it also makes me now, being on the other side of it, like really, really, really opposed to busy work. Like I hate busy work because I felt like that's like okay, like how many times can I run through these worksheets of like multiplication tables and you know? And so like I think that part of the motor that drives me now is finding efficient ways to do things, and I think part of the motor that was that used to drive me in my past life was like busy work actually felt really good because it felt familiar, you know, and that's sort of how I feel about like even like housework now, too is like like back in the day, I remember also being like pretty like obsessive about cleaning, maybe not to the same standards as you, but like it's because my body was trained to be good with busy work and so like in moments of anxiety, that's the thing that felt good is to do the busy work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like my daughter and I had a really great small conversation the other day where she shared that sometimes, whenever I walk into a room where she can hear my footsteps coming into the room, if she's like sitting there on her phone watching TikTok videos, that she will like quickly put her phone down and pick up a book. And because she's so busy, because she's so used to me coming in and being like why are you on your phone? Why are you on your phone? Get off your phone. Like you don't need to be on your phone all the time. Get off your phone. Even though we have agreed upon time limits for her to be on her phone, so the apps will literally lock her out when she's been on her phone enough. But still I would be like why are you on your phone? Get off your phone, you're wasting time. Don't be on your phone.
Speaker 2:And so she got into this pattern of I don't want mom to see me on my phone. So when I hear her footsteps coming in, if I'm on my phone, I'm gonna like try to hide that I was on my phone so I don't get caught. And of course my heart was like oh honey, I'm so sorry, like I'm so sorry. It's like that for you. I don't want you to have to do that, like it's okay. But then I was able to share with her and I'd never said this out loud to another human and I don't even know that I had awareness of it until she told me that she was doing.
Speaker 2:It Is like if my husband is out running an errand and I'm sitting in our kitchen on my phone, when he pulls into the driveway, I do the same fucking thing when I'm like oh, I would need to put my phone down and like I'll get up and start unloading the dishwasher, or I'll get up and like David has never once, never once in 22 years together has he ever come in and been like why are you on your phone? You? Shouldn't be on your phone.
Speaker 2:You should get off your phone.
Speaker 2:But like the idea, and I don't even see him as an authority figure. So I'm not sure like the psychology of this. I don't know what this is, but it's like I don't want to get caught with my pants down, essentially Like I don't want to get caught not being productive. And that definitely goes back to my childhood, because my stepfather, like in these exact words, literally said we have you to work. Like your purpose here is to work, that is all you're good for, is to like we are little ranch hands. And of course I like unconsciously, have now passed that onto my daughter and have to like eat my words and apologize and take accountability for myself. But then to see that that still shows up in my relationship with my husband, is this like you haven't earned your way to do that Like so the body becomes familiar with busy work which is doing right. It's like, even if it's meaningless, even if it's unnecessary, it's just this doing, doing, doing. I can't ever get caught not doing something.
Speaker 2:I need to look busy, even when I'm not. I need to be looking like I'm bettering myself by reading this book, even if I'm not actually reading it. Like and yeah, like that. That's definitely coming up for me right now, both personally in my marriage and in my business, because in my business I feel like I'm in a creative lull at the moment, like it's crickets in my business. Nothing new is coming out. I have nothing new to say. I went over a week without doing an Instagram post, which I don't know that I've ever done in all of my time on Instagram. I'm not sure I've ever gone a week without posting something.
Speaker 2:It's happening in my marriage because the other day, like this, I got a story in my head that's like you're not having enough sex. You should be having more sex. Dave, it's probably really unhappy with you. You guys should be doing more. And you know I have enough awareness now to like notice that voice and be like ha ha, isn't that interesting or whatever, but this one was like still there in the background making chatter.
Speaker 2:So the next day I, like was in the kitchen and he came into the kitchen and I was like the voice in my head wants me to pick a fight with you about our sex life. It says we're not having enough sex and we need to do something about it. And he was like, well, don't do that. Like don't pick a fight with me. And I was like I don't want to. That's why I'm telling you this, but do you think there's a problem?
Speaker 2:And then I was also. I don't know. I have a lot of revelations in my kitchen, which is weird. But I had another revelation where I was like in a stair in my kitchen and I was just like being present with the voice that was like you're not being creative in your business right now and you and David are not having enough sex, and like it was pointing out all of the not enoughness. And then I was like, okay, isn't that interesting? Like I wonder why there's this voice that's like you're not doing enough, you need to do more. And it was just a very soft sort of like answer that I got, which is, I feel like, from my highest self, because it felt soft, right, like it landed off, but it was like you still don't feel safe, like if you're not doing something, even if that's something is busy work, and for me creating Instagram content.
Speaker 2:A lot of times I use that as like procrastination work. That's my busy work Cause I like don't need to do it, but it's like it makes me feel like I'm doing something and then whenever I post and I get likes and comments and it gives me dopamine hits. So, yeah, it's just this weird space of like there's nothing to fix right now, there's nothing to be healing right now.
Speaker 2:I don't have a project in myself to work on. I'm not trying to overcome a pattern at the moment, like I'm just in this liminal space of like everything is fine and yet the voice in the back of my head and this sort of like simmering very low simmering anxiety in my body is like but there's something wrong. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, as you're speaking, I think that it's actually clarified for me, like what the motor has been and then what it feels like now. And I'm curious if this is similar for you. But, like when I look back on the times in my life when I was the most busy. There's a lot of shame there, you know. There's a lot of like. I talked about my time in Vancouver, but prior to that I was married, not to my current husband but to a previous husband, and he and I had such a dynamic where I never felt like I was good enough and I always felt like I had to prove myself, always felt like I was. You know, at the time I was in grad school, so I wasn't bringing in enough money Like there was a lot of like you're not good enough and it was like a very specific you are not good enough. And I'm not gonna put all the blame on my husband. I think that I sort of carried that and then also was amplified by that relationship. But I look on those times and I'm like dang, like I was doing so much, like I used to sit on the board for my roller derby team and when I stepped off of that board they had to have three people take my position. Like I was doing the job for three people. No-transcript. You know that was like in a lot of the jobs that I held. You know, when I was managing the restaurant that I was working at, it was like when I stepped down from that position, they had to hire a manager and a server to replace me. Like like this has been a theme in my life where you need two or three people to do the work that Kat does by herself and you're a manager. I don't think so, because I think that the level of work that I do now is appropriate for a manager. I think, like managing in shame and adrenal fatigue, or like moving towards adrenal fatigue, is a totally different level of work that can happen and I'm a workhorse. Like I know that about myself, but that motor back then was absolutely shame.
Speaker 1:I get those quieter voices like similar to what you're saying of like ooh, like you know, maybe my husband and I haven't had sex enough, for you know all those like sort of. They feel agitating and aggravating, but it doesn't feel like the same. Like, like, like it's easier to be like hey, like. I'm gonna use Brené Brown's definition of like guilt versus shame. It's like the like I'm a bad person versus like I've done a bad thing, which I don't think that like you know, that doesn't quite apply to the sex life thing, but like, but there's a level of being able to like, externalize the behavior and look at the behavior separate from who I am, as an identity. That feels really, really resonant and in some ways and I think that this goes back to like that quote that you were sharing before we hit record in some ways the shame voice is easier for me to work with now because the guilt voice is so unfamiliar, because it's like a slightly evolved version of the shame voice.
Speaker 1:Like the shame voice I can pick out and be like this is shame. I don't need to carry this. Can I sit with this part of myself? Can I sit with where this comes from? Like sitting with the darkness is easy. Yeah, it's sitting with the lightness. I can't remember exactly how you put it. It was really beautiful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was at a moon group the other night that I'm a part of, and one of the women in the group shared that she had had a dream and in the dream she told herself you're really good at navigating your way through the dark, but you're not so great at navigating your way through the light, meaning when things are dark and hard and stressful or traumatic or you know whatever, you're really good in that, but when things are easy and light and you know sunshine and whatever, like, you're not so great at that because you're so used to the darkness and like that landed in my body like super hard, not in a bad way, but just like. You basically just summed up in a sentence what I've been, you know, taking 10 minutes to share yeah, I'm really good at like, yeah, man, when I'm in the shame, when I'm in the trigger, like oh, I can sit with it right, like I'm good at sitting with it.
Speaker 2:I can be present, I can be so aware, I can dissect all the voices in my head and stew the inner child and work with my parts and like all of that. But when that's not going on and it's just a normal fucking Tuesday and like I don't have any drama in my life, I'm not triggered, I'm not working through a pattern, I'm not. It's just like things are fine. They're literally fine, yeah. Is that?
Speaker 2:yeah, what you were describing about what that voice feels like for you is it's not like it's not screaming at me, yeah, but it's just like back here just being annoying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like the nagging voice that says like, oh, you haven't done the dishes today. As I said here, looking at not quite full sync of dishes but some dishes in the sink, you know, it's like it's smaller, but it's harder for me to to know what to do with that voice Because you know, like we have all the tools to do the hard shit and like people come to us for the hard shit like which I really, you know, I, I love that. I get to do that as my job. The guilt voice is like I'm sitting here and being like, do I just let the dishes sit? And if I was like to talk to my husband, sean, about it, he'd be like, yeah, like what's the big deal? Like it's okay if they just sit there. And then there's this part of me that comes up and is like but it's so like it feels like I want to crawl out of my skin sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it feels, icky.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:David, david would be like I was planning on doing those later, anyway, don't worry about it. Like that's what David would say, you know, which, then, which then also brings up like an agitating, annoying voice of, like you know, he does this all the time, he does everything You're not going to like it doesn't fucking stop Like.
Speaker 2:It's like, no matter what I'm doing, even when everything is fine in my life, there's still this agitated voice. It's very quiet, but it's still there under the surface. That's like, yeah, but it's still not enough. Yeah, but yeah, but right, and like I don't know, do you just like sometimes, even though there's no urgency, there's no shame, there's no, maybe there's a little bit of perfectionism, but it's not like a heavy cloak of perfectionism, like, even if it's not a priority, it relieves the mental load, if I just fucking do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and I've actually been playing with like, what, like, the edge for me is to not do it, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, same. I'm like okay, there's a voice in my head that's like there's a pile of dishes and you need to do them and it's not David's job to do them. Can you leave it? Yeah, and yes, I can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know I'm. Sometimes, when I go into these spaces, I have to like, externalize myself and be like okay. So how would I speak to a client about this, you know, and can we create some softness around this? Because I wouldn't speak to a client in the way that my inner voice and my inner critic speaks to me sometimes, you know, and like it's dependent on the moment, it's dependent on, like what's happening in my life and I I go into the like okay, so this can still be a somatic practice for me. You know, what does it feel like to leave it and where does that feeling come from? And if that feeling comes from shame, then like that's something that I need to unpack.
Speaker 1:If that feeling comes from guilt, then you know, like right now, the thing that's coming up for me as I'm thinking about this, this, the dishes and the sink is like Sean works really long hours right now. You know, he worked Christmas, he worked Christmas Eve, like like he's been like really getting after it in terms of work, and so, like some days that motivation to clean up the kitchen comes from guilt and some days it comes from just like a genuine sort of desire to I want to have my husband come home to a clean home, yeah, you know. And so, like, like, to me, like that's the subtle work of guilt that gets that. I'm learning the skill of like, trying to understand, is A. It always goes back to the body.
Speaker 1:So can I sit with that feeling of guilt? Can I sit with that feeling of like? Is that guilt or is that desire? And to me, like, those edges are really like they can't really muddy. Yeah, and so if it's coming from desire, then obviously that's an easy yes. If it's coming from guilt, then can I sit with it and optimize it and then decide what I want to do with that. What if it's both?
Speaker 1:Oh, lindsay Like okay, why you got to complicate it.
Speaker 2:The voices in my head are very complicated. So like, but for real. So my thing is is movement Like we started talking about? Right? It's movement. And whenever I ask myself, like, okay, where's the shouldn't come from? Does it have to look like the influencer on Instagram? No, what if I go about it in a different way? Okay. So what I want out of movement and Jesus, I hope we don't get canceled over this I do want to be in a smaller body, Not because I like, not for any other reason than I'm at a point where I'm the heaviest weight I've ever been and I don't feel comfortable in my body Like this.
Speaker 2:This last year I have had the experience of the first time in my life like having difficulty bending over to tie my shoe because my belly is in the way, Like that sort of feeling, and this is not at all intended to be like fat phobic or like anything like that. I am a small person. I have a small frame. I'm five, five, Like. My body does not feel good at my current size, even though pretty much everyone looks at me and they're like what do you mean? You need to lose weight? No, you don't. You're not fat, You're fine, and I'm like, okay, thank you.
Speaker 2:Like I don't know where my body puts it all, but I mean, when I tell people I'm like I'm literally in a size 14 pants right now, when I, when I say that like to my friends or whatever, they're like no, you're not. Like, no, you're not, but I am. I just bought new jeans because my size 12s didn't fit anymore. So for me, the voice of like you really should move more, you really should.
Speaker 2:I also have chronic pain and the one thing I've tried so many things for this chronic pain I've seen so many practitioners, I've done so much for it the one thing that I have not done consistently that I really believe my body wants me to do is is strength training Is like like I'm in a hypermobile body and I think that some of my stabilizer muscles don't fire and other muscles and tendons are picking up the slack and that's causing my fascia to get, you know, adhused and like certain muscle groups are not firing the way they're supposed to. So like I feel like I have some imbalances in my body, Like so I feel like I have two really legitimate reasons for me for why I want to move my body that don't come from guilt and also the guilt voice is still there, so like that's what I mean by both. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's also why I'm having a difficult time teasing apart when to self discipline crossover into self punishment. Because for me, I know that when I start lifting consistently, I'm going to get sore, I'm going to be in pain, I'm probably going to get worse before I get better. It's going to be hard. I have to leave my house, which I hate doing, because I'm not about to put a fucking gym in my house. I just recently put a poll up. You haven't seen my poll yet. Like at my poll cat.
Speaker 1:Oh it's gold. It is gold, so shiny.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So like I don't know, it is both for me, like I can honestly say there is a higher self, like grounded divine, like I need to move my body is not comfortable. This is the most supportive thing I can do for my body right now, and also, you really should move your fat ass. You really should look, you really, should, you really should.
Speaker 2:So, like what I'm having trouble and I feel like I'm having trouble saying it even is like it's like, yes, there's a voice that probably does come from trauma and not doing enough and shutting and all of that, and also there's truth in it, and like I don't know how to hold on to the true part and let that be the motor while releasing the part that's coming from trauma. Does that make?
Speaker 1:sense it does. Yeah, yeah. So if I'm hearing you correctly, I hear the desire voice actually like much stronger than the guilt voice.
Speaker 2:And it is the desire voice is much stronger than the guilt voice. But, like you were saying, it's like can it be a somatic practice to sit with, not doing the dishes? I'm doing the exact same thing where I'm like, if the voice is like you should lift, you should work out, you should go to the gym, you should, you should, you should, I'm like, okay, my somatic practice is to sit here and be present with his voice and not do everything it's telling me to do. So can I resist the voice? Yes, yes, I can. But my resistance of the voice I feel is causing my own demise and is actually going against my desire. But it's like if there's even a shred of guilt or should in the voice, I throw the whole thing out with the bathwater, like the whole thing goes out, and then I just don't fucking move at all. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then I'm like fuck you voice, I'll show you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, may I ask some coachy type questions?
Speaker 2:I'm fucking Lutely yeah, coachy.
Speaker 1:Hopefully this is helpful for folks. But like what does the desire voice feel like in your body?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. I immediately see a version of myself from a couple years ago, whenever I was like what I feel is the perfect weight for my body, where I felt comfortable in my body, where I had more energy, where I had less pain, and like that's immediately what I go back to. It's like a point of reference that I have. Yeah, it's not like I'm trying to be an older version of myself or get my body back or whatever. It's just like this is a frame of reference, for whenever I felt like I was at a healthy weight, I felt really good in my body. I felt good in my clothes. I didn't have a belly roll. That was like getting in the way of tying my shoe or sitting up in bed and getting out of bed, like I didn't have that, and so that's not really a feeling, that's more of a description. What is? I don't know what it feels like. That's a great question. Oh shit, are you there? Okay, sorry, my internet went out.
Speaker 1:That's okay, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, I heard up to. It's not like I'm trying to be an older version of myself.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay. Yeah, it's not like I'm trying to be an older version of myself. It's just that particular time in my life is my frame of reference for, like this is how I want to feel again. So I don't know if that answers your question directly about what does desire feel like in your body, but like I know what I desire to feel like again, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, when you think about that point of reference, what does that feel like in your body?
Speaker 2:Location, sensation, there's not a specific location or sensation other than I would say it feels really spacious, I feel, I feel a smile. Like I feel the smile in my body and it feels really spacious and I see myself like hiking in the woods, yeah, and feeling really good yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So then that's an easy yes, right, Like you think about working out and going and lifting weights and you feel spaciousness and the smile in your body. Oh no.
Speaker 2:I don't feel a smile in my body when I think about it. I think about lifting weights. I think it feels like a dragging energy. It feels like ironically a heavy energy because I have my brother is a weightlifting coach. Like I get free weightlifting coaching any fucking time I want and he will program my leg days, my arm days. He'll tell me how much time to walk on the treadmill, at what incline he will. He will program my nutrition for me if I want him to. Like I have this access to this unending resource of a brother who's like sure I'll do whatever you want. Whenever you're ready, I'll help you. And he has.
Speaker 2:And the two times that I've let him start helping me or I've asked for help, my fear was like I'm afraid that I'm not going to do some of these exercises in the correct form and I'm going to hurt myself. So can we do it over zoom so that you can see if I'm standing the right way and lifting the right way and I'm not hurting myself? And he's like yeah, sure. So he had me doing lunges across the room just holding like five pound weights in both hands. So nothing huge, but I was doing lunges across the room and the like I hated it. I hated it, cat. And after I did like 12 lunges or something, like I told my brother I was like I'm fucking mad right now. And he was like are you mad at me? And I said no, I'm not mad at you, I'm just fucking mad. Like I'm mad because that was hard. I'm mad because I feel weak. I'm mad because I did this to myself. I'm mad Like I was so angry, cat and like.
Speaker 2:I know that resistance movements can bring up anger really well, which is why I have my clients do them, but I like, I hated it, and if I'm going to move my body and sustain it, I need to like the way it feels. Yeah. I don't want to get pissed every time I'm doing lunges. Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 1:I think that's totally fair If you were to ask your body like hey, like we have this desire to go back to that point of reference and wear a team here, what feels like good movement to get you there.
Speaker 2:Walking, yeah, um, dancing, I want to say lifting, but like something that feels not as hardcore. Yeah, Like, even though doing 12 lunges is not hardcore, because I do want to be stronger, but, yeah, definitely like walking in the woods, dancing, but I don't, those things don't really make me a whole lot stronger you know, is that stuff that you do already now? Yeah, no, I mean walking. No, that's a whole nother set of excuses. Like we're having a snow free winter in Minnesota, and usually the snow is my excuse for not going for walks.
Speaker 2:We have literally no snow on the ground right now. So my excuse for the last five days was that it was foggy and raining and today it's sunny and not fogging and not raining and I am planning on going for a walk today. But but yeah, I do. I like I will come up with excuses to not do the things and those excuses again, on one hand, feel really justified and then, on the other hand, the voice is like you know, that's a fucking excuse. Yeah. I'm my own worst enemy about this.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I'm wondering if, like the weightlifting is like too big of a jump to start the self discipline practice, starting with something that your body wants to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think walking is a much more realistic place to start.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then giving yourself and building up that trust of like I can hold myself accountable to walking, and then being like hey, like maybe I don't know, like I remember like cheesy weights that I used to see my mom work out with on her ankles, like back in the nineties, like maybe you do your dance practice with like ankle weights and like wrist weights.
Speaker 2:That's a creative idea I had not thought of.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think, doing the things that your body already wants to do, because I know that you love dancing, you know, and yeah.
Speaker 2:I just have been dancing for a year and I'm bigger, not smaller, and, like you know, again this could get us canceled, I realized. But like, this is my experience and this is my truth, and that is that I'm not trying to make myself smaller because I'm afraid of taking up space, which is, I know, a thing that a lot of women, especially with, like, disordered eating and over exercising, it's like I'm not allowed to take up space. I need to be smaller, like I don't have that. I already take up shitloads of space in my life, online and in real life. Like I am not afraid of taking up space. So it comes from a genuine desire to like, of knowing, like I know my body best.
Speaker 2:I've been in my body for 40 years. I've been in my body at many different sizes, from like way too thin and sick to like now I would say like overweight, but I still feel pretty good, like I don't feel crazy unhealthy. But I do have a desire. I really genuinely have a desire to be smaller and it doesn't come from being afraid to take up space, yeah, and I feel like I have to be really clear about that, because I know that a lot of people listening can twist that. Their own voices in their heads are going to twist that and it's going to mean something to them. So I just feel like I have to be really clear about that. But but, yeah, yeah, I forget, was there a question?
Speaker 1:No, I just I think the idea of like working with your body instead of forcing your body to do something it doesn't want to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that that's where it comes down to when to self discipline crossover into self punishment, because as soon as it starts to feel like I'm forcing, then I resist even harder and I don't believe that that resistance is actually coming from ego. I believe that that resistance is like coming from my body going. I don't actually want to do this. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, to be honest, I don't have a ton of experience with like feeling the edges of. Does this movement feel like punishment or does this movement feel really good? You know, because I've been in so much resistance to movement. And then, as I was talking about, it's the time of year when everyone's talking about I need to exercise more and I need to have all these New Year's resolutions and I'm going to lose 30 pounds in 30 days and like all this shit and like I have no desire to do any of that. But I'm also not going to hide the fact that, like more than once in the past three weeks, I've thought about, like maybe I just want liposuction to get rid of my belly fat, like I've actually fucking had that thought and I'm the most opposed person to like plastic surgery and body alteration that there is, but the crazy thoughts still come in. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I just don't there's never a perfect situation, right and I think that that's an important thing to name here is like, anytime we shouldn't like run away from resistance and, you know, throw away the throw the baby out with the bathwater here.
Speaker 1:But I think it's worth playing with that resistance and being like, hey, okay. So I'm hearing the resistance around doing lunges with weights. I'm hearing the resistance around, you know, doing weightlifting in the traditional way that your brother does weightlifting. But if weights is something that you're drawn to and walking is something that you're drawn to and dancing is something that you're drawn to, then can we find some sort of combination within that that your body can feel a bit of resistance, because there's going to be a bit of resistance just to get the wheels turning, but it's not so much resistance that it turns you into an angry, like fitness monster. You know like, maybe you take those weights and you go for a walk, like a brisk walk, with it. You know, yeah, and maybe you get those wrist weights and do your you know dance practice with weights on your, on your ankles and your wrists. Yeah, maybe you create a dance routine around like weights.
Speaker 2:Huh, that's an interesting idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm envisioning like body, body suit, leotard and fluorescent colors. Please, if you're going to do it that way.
Speaker 2:But like it's like a body suit but it has, like you know, like little pockets in the fabric where you can insert weights. You know like we shouldn't vent that. You know like you can insert weights around the, around the calves, and then like weights around the thighs and weights around the middle and weights around the arms. Yeah, it's just a suit that you wear. Yeah, I've seen vests like that. Yeah, yeah, that's a neon body suit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is my husband he's got I don't even know what they call it, but it's like a vest. I think they use it in the military for training, yeah, like, and they put like literal weights in the vest and you know we used to go for walks with him wearing a really intimidating looking military vest.
Speaker 2:The neighbors like think he's in the maybe. Yeah, you know yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's like if you were to tell me like okay, cat, like, because I I have similar feelings too. Like I have, this is the biggest I've been as well, and I think that for me, my journey is a little bit different in that, like my body has been a direct reflection of like hey, girl, like you do need to take up space. And so my body, like, literally, is like okay, got that message, let me take up some space. And learning to love my body as it is at the biggest weight that it's been has been an interesting journey for me. And now that I feel like I take up plenty of space and For me it wasn't really about like tying my shoes, but it really was like I had a moment a couple of months ago where I was like it's hard for me to get up off of the floor, like Not hard, like in such a way where I can't do it, but like harder than it should be, like yeah, and you know I took that moment and I was like, oh, I don't like that. I like being able to, especially like being a Korean woman. Like I eat a lot of my meals off of the floor. If, given a choice, I will eat off the floor because it's how I grew up and and so.
Speaker 1:But if somebody were to tell me like, hey, here's a program, here's a nutrition plan, here is, you know, a weightlifting gym thing that you have to like, do, and, and then we're gonna go like stepwise into, like Expanding that into you know, harder and harder things, oh, my god, I would know. Yeah, immediate shutdown. But you tell me like, okay, your horses need to drink water, so you need to cart out a thousand pounds of water. Today I got it, you know. If you tell me Cuz, like all my water jugs are in like five gallon jugs and so like that's like 40, 50 pounds gallon or a jug, and you know their arena is dirty because they've pooped all over it, like I can, I can shovel poop and I can walk it out to my garden, my future garden. Like to me, like that is the movement that my body like not only like Feels good in, but like I look forward to that kind of movement, like I am excited genuinely to like get off this call and go drive out and go pick a Poor shit.
Speaker 2:Um, so you're saying I need horses, everyone needs horses. When you were talking about I, was like that that would be enjoyable to me too, like it honestly would be, but I don't have any kind of livestock that needs like daily Stuff, like that you know I mean like the chickens don't need me to cart out gallons and gallons of water to them every day, or gallons of you know Bails of hay, or like they don't need that.
Speaker 2:It's like you know, we clean the chicken coop out three, four times a year, and Sure, it's hard work whenever I do that, but then I'm fucking sore the next day because I haven't been cleaning the chicken coop out every day, you know. Yeah, so I think what you're saying is that I need horses.
Speaker 1:Yes, or that's fine. Yes, my body. Or just find the kind of movement that feels good in your body, you know, yeah.
Speaker 2:My lack of movement and my desire to be small is my Roman. Empire, mmm it's my Roman Empire. My kids were asking me the other day. They were like mom, what's your Roman Empire?
Speaker 1:What do you think?
Speaker 2:Multiple times. Oh, have you not seen that? No, it's like there's. There's like memes and videos and shit that like it's like a man thing to think about the Roman Empire pretty frequently. Okay, and so then people are like what is your Roman Empire? Like what is the thing that you think about really frequently? My son actually did say that he thinks about the Roman Empire, but I was also like he was homeschooled, right, and one of the things he was really interested in whenever he was homeschooling was the Roman Empire. He read books and books on the Roman Empire and like wanted to watch documentaries and this is adorable.
Speaker 2:So my husband was like I don't think about the Roman Empire that much, like he's probably like sex, is my Roman Empire, Like that's probably the thing I think about the most, right? So then I was like, well, what is the thing that I think about most? And I wanted to be like trauma healing, like I think about feelings and the nervous system and trauma healing and whatever. And my kids were like, okay, that kind of counts, I guess. And then later within myself I was like my body is like I think about the size and shape of my body, like more than anything, probably in my own internal Thought processes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean, in that case, then I think, like, work with the body, because I think part of this is like the body, just like, is feeling. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but like I'm hearing a sense of like she's gonna forget about me In this process of like, like getting to my goal, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that that definitely resonates, and also like it really. It comes down to like I Need to find the edge from self-discipline to self-punishment, like, and I want to stay inside the window of self-discipline and not cross over to self-punishment. And it's not my fault that I Grew up and now, as an adult, live in a culture where Weight loss and fitness goals are almost always achieved through punishment.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, so like I think I just needed to remind myself of that like out loud and just say out loud, like it's not your fault that you don't know how to stay In self-discipline, and not cross over into self-punishment. Like I said, not cross over into self-punishment like it's not your fault. Yeah, because literally no one has ever modeled that to me or taught me that like I've never seen it ever. And the one time, the one time that I lost weight Without doing anything differently, like my movement wasn't different, my eating wasn't different, I wasn't counting anything, I wasn't restricting anything like I mean, I was restricting like gluten and dairy and shit like that but it wasn't. It wasn't for weight loss purposes.
Speaker 2:But in in 2018, my body started dropping weight and I I distinctly remember like waking up in the fall of 2018, which was a super stressful year for me, but I felt good for most of it until the fall for the. For the rest of it I felt good, um, but I remember waking up one morning and like getting out of bed and instantly was like, oh my gosh, I feel lighter.
Speaker 2:Hmm like my body feels lighter. So I went down to our basement, I like wiped off the scale because it was really dusty and hadn't been used in forever, stepped on the scale and I was like 15 pounds lighter from the last time I had stepped on the scale, which had been like probably over a year before. But it was like a noticeable difference. And I remember texting my mom and being like somehow I lost 15 pounds without trying, like I don't know what's happening. My mom was like great, you know? Hmm. And then over the next few months, like I would text my mom and be like I've lost another 10, like this intuitive eating thing really works Right. And like that's what I was talking about on instagram because people are like, oh, you're losing weight, it looks so great. And I was like, yeah, I'm just intuitive eating, man, it's so great, I'm just intuitive eating, I haven't changed anything else, I'm just intuitive eating.
Speaker 2:And then the weight loss sped up. And it sped up and then, you know, by winter of 2018, going into 2019, I was getting too thin and I was starving and I was eating all the time, but I was losing weight faster than I was eating it. And then I mean I long story short is I ended up losing about 40 pounds in three months. Like it just started coming off slowly and it felt good and I thought it was from intuition because I wasn't doing anything else. But then it, as as 2018, went on and went into 2019 and I was having really bad anxiety and panic attacks and health problems and was bedridden and all of this stuff Like the weight started coming off faster, and so I also have a story of like I don't know what healthy weight loss feels like, because that was not healthy weight loss, and it's almost like my body like duped me, because it started out as like, oh, I'm just intuitive, eating this is so great, right.
Speaker 2:And then it like escalated into Whoa, slow down, like it's too much, and so I got to like the lowest weight that I have ever been since before I got married and yeah, so like the pendulum swung that way, and now it's taking, you know, three and a half years, four years, and the pendulum has now swung, you know, and I've gained 70 plus pounds, um, you know, 40 of which I really needed to gain back, you know. And when my body started putting weight on again, I remember being like Okay, my body feels safe to take up space again, like she's not trying to disappear, she's. She's not trying to like shrivel up and die, like she feels safe to take up space. This is great. And then, you know, I like hit the like 30 40 pound weight gain mark, which was where I felt really good, and then it just kept going, yeah, and so I kind of felt a little bit betrayed by my body, like I thought we were losing weight in a healthy way and then it ended up being like the scariest thing of my life.
Speaker 1:You know well. Did your body dupe you or was it trying to communicate something with you?
Speaker 2:It definitely was trying to communicate something with me. I I don't have clarity on what she was communicating with all of that weight loss. Like physiologically, I know I was in a hyperadrenalized state. Yeah, um, like, at that point it wasn't a cortisol issue anymore, it was an adrenaline issue. Yeah, yeah so I have clarity about that and I understand why I was in an adrenalized state. But I don't understand if there is a direct message regarding Like losing that much weight.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it can and can it just be that that you were in a hyperadrenalized state and your body was like, hey, like we're in a really high adrenaline state and you're not paying attention to the fact that there's a ton of anxiety, there's a ton of like health issues going on, and so, like, like you got to pay attention.
Speaker 2:Oh, I was paying attention to those things but, even paying attention to those things didn't stop the weight loss, it just. But Paying attention, yes, knowing what to do about it Different story, right, right, like I didn't have nervous system language back then, I I didn't understand any of what I understand now.
Speaker 2:Like Now, if that were to happen again, a, I don't think it would ever get that bad, because I would be able to, like, put the brakes on before we drove off the cliff, yeah, um, but. But I still have a desire to be like. I want to lose weight in a healthy way that doesn't involve restriction, that involves Self-discipline, but not punishment. I know that movement is going to be involved in that. I have zero desire whatsoever to, like, make new years resolutions about that or, like you know, set some sort of unrealistic goal for myself to lose a certain amount of weight in a certain time. You know, separately, but also related, I do think that I I probably need to do a Dutch test.
Speaker 2:Like I'm 40, I've talked to you multiple times about symptoms that I'm like, is this very menopause, is it not? I'm not sure, but I think I think it is time for me to do a Dutch test. Um, and so I know that if my hormones are imbalanced because of the time of life that I'm in, then Any goal that I set for myself for, like weight loss or fitness or whatever, like, if I'm not taking that into account, I'm I'm going to be disappointed because, in a way, that the odds are stacked against me right If, like, my hormones are not on my side in this moment.
Speaker 1:It can go both ways. I've started. Women drop weight because of menopause as well. But I think I want to just pick out a thing that you just said, um, which is I know that if that were to happen again, I, I it wouldn't get that bad, because you have tools around like nervous system regulation, understanding you know, your health and differently, understanding your body, differently, like having a different relationship with your body than you had back then. And so I wonder if there's a part of you that feels Scared to lose the weight like wanting to, like desiring to and then there's a part of you that also feels scared to lose the weight because you think that there's a level of, a level of control that you'll lose. And I think that there's, um, you know, sort of using 2018 as a benchmark for weight loss Versus like using what you actually have and in your tool belt now and the relationship that you have with your body now, like you're comparing apples and oranges there.
Speaker 2:That's true, yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like you were saying earlier, because I have clients that do this too, where if they grow up in a home where one or both parents Is hurtful in their anger, then they grow up and they're like they feel like that's what anger is. I don't want any part of it. Yeah, I don't want to be angry like that.
Speaker 2:Right and because they've never had a healthy anger model to them, they don't know what it looks like. So it becomes a binary of like either I'm angry and hurtful and harmful and problematic, or I'm totally shut down and never expressed my anger at all and I kind of feel that way about. That's how I feel about weight loss now, which is like, if weight loss for me looks like it did in 2018, which is the only time in my life I've ever lost weight without trying I don't want any part of it Like if that's what weight loss is. No, thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so then so then you're in this stagnant place of like you know well, I can't lose weight. I also can't gain weight like Like now I just have to be at this place, yes, versus, you know, playing with that desire, playing with the like Places where this is actually going to be like a joint project between you and your body, you know, instead of it being like hey, I think that a lot of times, people do approach weight loss as this, like I'm going to punish my body or I'm going to control my body and I'm going to do this in a way that like Is Well, if she's gained weight, she's been bad, right, right, she's been bad, so she needs to be like.
Speaker 1:I need to punish her to get her to behave like I want her to behave Right versus like, if you go into this as like this is a partnership, yeah, you know, yeah, I'm sort of like. I feel like there's you guys are going to get so sick of me telling horse stories. Never, I never will. But like, I have a horse that's being boarded with me right now and she is, oh my gosh, I love her to pieces. I kind of hope that her owner just lets me keep her for a while. I hope that her owner just lets me keep her forever and ever.
Speaker 1:But, um, but, uh, I've noticed that when her owner comes to catch her, she does not want to be caught Like she will like literally run away kicking her heels, like the other day it was a very dramatic sort of situation and what her owner does with her is she's a horse trainer and so she does like lessons and she's doing stuff in the arena.
Speaker 1:Flower hates this, like I can see it on her face. She's very annoyed. Um, but I've been playing with her and what we do is we do some like really, really gentle, like, almost like horse yoga Together, and I'll take her on trail rides, which she loves, and I don't get the like same reaction from her that she gives to her owner and it's because I found the things that she really enjoys doing. They happen to be the things that I also enjoy doing, and so I'm getting less resistance from her. Um, and so I think that, like, if we can sort of look at that in terms of your body as like a metaphor, it's like your body's like saying fuck, no, I don't want to do lunches and weights and you know, like powerlifting, and so like, let's find something that you both want to do yeah, it just.
Speaker 2:It reminds me so much of what my body told me last year, whenever I was having this same sort of conversation with myself and it's just now coming into my mind again Is like my body really ever since regulating my nervous system and being an awareness, like my body is always like please choose the gentlest option, and like I'm being reminded of that right now and like. You know, lunges that make me angry is not the gentlest option. Right, and sometimes, sometimes like going walking in the cold rain is also not the gentlest option.
Speaker 2:You know, and yeah, it's like what's the line between, like how much discomfort do I want to be in? Versus like is it okay for it to be comfortable? You know how?
Speaker 2:much of this is self-discipline. How much of this is self punishment, like it's it's finding the edges Of that all the time? How much of this is me shitting on myself and how much of this is like coming from? Yeah, yeah, um, how much of this is Guilt and how much of this is desire, like it's just there's lots of edges there that feel really blurry to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, and I think it's the medicine of like exploring those edges is really important. You know, yeah, I think that you know, for me personally, like when I first started Learning about the nervous system and somatics and inner child work and all that stuff, like the edges were so clear. You know, and I'm finding that the longer and longer I'm in this work, the edges become blurrier and blurrier and blurrier and it's up to me to find that clarity between those edges.
Speaker 1:You know because it's not so black and white anymore. Yeah, because I don't.
Speaker 2:Black and white is necessary in the beginning. Absolutely like if you, if you've gone your whole life and you've never set a fucking boundary, then you're gonna need some really overt experiences of like boundary setting to start introducing that to your body to be like, okay, this is what a boundary feels like, what setting a boundary feels like, this is what holding a boundary feels like. And then eventually you know that pendulum swings and you can start to feel like people start getting like they don't want to hang out with you as much, or like you know they have a problem with it or you lose friends or whatever, and sometimes that's necessary.
Speaker 2:But then sometimes that's like the relationships being like okay, I love you and I respect your boundaries, but sometimes it feels like too much for me because I do love you and I am a safe person for you, so you don't need the same kind of boundaries with me that you need with your stepdad, for example. You know.
Speaker 1:Because I'm not him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so then you kind of go back over here and then the pendulum swings a little bit the other way and then you kind of find yourself not quite as much in boundarylessness as you were before, but like they start getting a little loosey-goosey. And so then you got it and it's just yeah finding that middle space. But I think, going from the binary of never setting a boundary, you're gonna have to spend some time in the binary of like being pretty rigid in your boundaries for a while. Yeah, yeah, and that's necessary. I think it's not bad yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think that, like just to relate it back to the story around the body, is, like you know, if you spent so much time punishing your body and you know doing things that felt really counter to your body, like like fair, that you also spent a few years giving your body full permission, you know, and and so that was the black and white, and now we're getting into some of those, messier, blurrier, gray spaces where you still need to find that, that edge in the nuance. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know, I think that A I want to like normalize this thing that you know, I think because I think that that's like you know, whether we're talking about boundaries or or, you know, losing weight, or being in relationship with your body, or being in relationship with your partner, or being in relationship with your family, like, like. As you do more and more of this work, the edges are going to be less obvious, and that doesn't mean that the same tools don't apply. It doesn't mean that you're not doing it right. It just means that, like, you're at a different sort of state of evolution within your own healing journey and you know the path is not going to be as clear now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I actually think that's a good thing, like, ultimately it's a good thing, I think absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think it is a sign like, especially for clients too, like when clients start getting in the gray space and it's not quite so binary anymore, Like it is a little bit more advanced healing work to be able to be in that space. And you know, advanced sure doesn't mean it's not confusing, Absolutely not Right. But it's like it's, you know, in the beginning of like trauma work, when we're really trying to work with the inner critic, and like silence, the inner critic, the inner critic is fucking screaming. Right.
Speaker 2:Right and everything is wrong all the time. Yeah. And so as the inner critic's voice gets quieter, because you're meeting yourself and you're nourishing yourself and you're regulating your nervous system and all of that stuff, and like I actually think it's a good sign, whenever you're like well, I can feel equal parts desire and guilt and like like that's pretty profound yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it is, it is. It's a really beautiful place to be.
Speaker 2:Podcast turned coaching session.
Speaker 1:I only coached for a minute.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it was great. It was so great I needed it a lot, as I will stare out my window and go well, the sun is still shining, it's still not raining. I'm going to have to go walk Fair and like can I, can I? From a not punishing place, but from a place of self discipline. You know, it's like telling my kids whenever they're little and they just want to sit in front of a movie all day, at some point we have to turn the movie off and I have to be like you guys have to go outside and play because it's good for you. You know, like this is like a re parenting thing for myself of being like okay, you've worked enough today, it's time for you to go outside and go for a walk, Not because you're shitting on yourself, but because this is good for you.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah. And you know, play with, like, how your body wants to engage with that walk. You know, maybe you do want to take a brisker pace so that you get your cardio up. You know, and that's how you build up that cardiac muscle again. And maybe you do want to add you know weights and like hold weights while you're walking. You know, maybe, yeah, or dancing, maybe you do like walk sprints, like I don't know, play with it.
Speaker 2:Okay, I need permission to play with it. Is there anything new in your world that you want to share? Like are you, do you have anything open right now, or like any new offerings?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, everything is there about it. Everything is changing in 2024. Really, yeah. So business I am, yeah, yeah, I've just started sharing about it this week. So business alchemist mentorship is now open anytime anybody wants to. Yeah, so I'm not doing launch cycles anymore. Anybody can join at the time that they feel ready to join and there's weekly ish live group coaching and one to two like subject specific workshops, and those subject specific workshops are also going to be available to purchase like a la carte. So I've got one that's coming up around optimizing fear. I've also got one coming up around the young wood dragon year that's coming through. You're going to be teaching one, although that one's only going to be available for BAM participants because, yeah, I'll probably do it on my own some other time. For my yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but, yeah, but I thought I would rather your your people get it all to themselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do have such a big like following or audience or whatever, and I love answering people's questions. I know I'm not a generator or manifesting generator, so my strategy is not to respond like I get that, but I fucking love me a good Q&A. I love answering questions, I know.
Speaker 2:And maybe because to me it's not about responding. Maybe to me a question feels like an invitation yeah, you're inviting me to speak into this really important thing. Like yeah, yeah, but you know, if it's a workshop of 100 people, that's like sold out. Your people are not going to have as much time, exactly, yeah, and I want to give them more FaceTime, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then I've got other really wonderful guest speakers. I've got a creativity coach coming on, I've got Vanessa, who's a like holistic healer, so like lots of really really wonderful guest speakers. So all that stuff is going to be on cathostsulicom.
Speaker 2:That's so exciting.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm happy for you. Congratulations.
Speaker 1:It feels scary. It feels like like BAM is growing up. You know, I've been running it for two years and we have 63 people in the community and so like, like we were growing up a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's becoming a teenager, Not a toddler anymore, mm hmm, yeah. That's exciting Good for you. I'm so happy Thanks.
Speaker 1:How about you? What do you have going on that you want to share? What do I?
Speaker 2:have going on On January 20th, which is a Saturday. I never do this, but I got a lot of requests. I'm going to teach my Thong the Freeze Response Workshop that I don't think anybody knows this, but I wrote that workshop for. Bam yeah. And then I was like Holy shit, this is epic. I should teach this to everyone.
Speaker 2:So I'm teaching it on Saturday, january 20th, at 11am central, after getting a lot of requests to do it on a weekend for people who work. So we're going to do that and people can get their ticket at lindsaylockettcom forward slash thaw T-H-A-W. And then the only other thing. Well, I guess there is actually two other things. In my one-on-one client work. I had a client who was like she had like two sessions left, two 90 minute sessions left, and she was like would it be okay if we divided these into 30 minute chunks and just did like feeling work instead of talking. And I was like sure, let's do that. So we started doing these somatic listening basically is what we were doing and it's just like her going into her body and finding a sensation and being present with it and then like asking her body like what's the message here?
Speaker 2:Or what do you want me to know? Or sometimes you don't even have to ask the question, the body is just like here it is. So we did that a couple times and she was like have you ever considered just offering like sessions like this, like this is so profound? And I was like that's a great idea. So we threw together a landing page and I have started offering it and I stuck a limited number of sessions on my calendar for January, february and like the first week of March, and so it's a way for people to work one on one with me without having to sign up for like a full coaching package. They can book one session, three sessions or five sessions in a package. And yeah, I want to say like so far, like almost 30 sessions are gone. That's awesome, yeah. And then the only other thing that's happening is I'll be opening Feel Without Fear again at the end of February, so people can check that out or get on the wait list. We can put a link in the show notes Awesome, yeah.
Speaker 1:Is that the only way people are going to be able to work with you one on one in 2024?
Speaker 2:Is Feel Without Fear.
Speaker 1:No, the somatic listening.
Speaker 2:No, but my one on one clients are all full until fall, so and then, depending on if people keep going or not, I mean I don't have any one on one to open up. But I was chatting with you a couple weeks ago about like wanting to take time off this summer because I feel like the winter time in my business is like the summer of my business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and the winter of my body, and then the summer of my body is in the actual summer and it's more of the winter of my business. So that seems to be the rhythm that we've fallen into, and so I really want to have a lot of blank space on my calendar in like. July and August, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm starting with two new one on ones in January and I'm not going to add any more. So they'll be done with their six months in June and then I'm not going to add any more or continue one on ones for July and August and then I'll start with one on ones again in the fall. Cool, but I really, really want to experiment with that. So I'll probably offer some somatic listening sessions, like later in the year I'll probably do a summer cohort of feel without fear. But you know, you know this one on ones are a big time and energy investment, yeah, like the most of anything else that I do. So I'm looking forward to giving myself a break for the first time this coming summer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm doing something really similar. I had 48 one on one clients in 2023. And so I'm reducing that in half, and so I'll only be taking on 24 one on all clients this year.
Speaker 2:So Wow, I don't even think I've had 24 one on ones this year.
Speaker 1:This is the Mani Gen right.
Speaker 2:Mani Gen and their projector. I'm like if I have more than three things on my calendar in one day, I'm like shit, yeah. Again it goes back to what I was saying earlier. Like I look at my younger self and I'm like how did I do it? And I was just running on adrenaline man, like adrenaline and cortisol, that was the fuel in the tank. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And for me, like I look at that and I'm like just because, like there was a time in my life where I was seeing like 50 clients a week when I was at Acupuncturist in Vancouver, and so I look at, you know 48 clients. And you know like when I say 48 clients, it's people who are in like long term containers with me, Like I don't do one offs, and I look at 48 and I was like dang, like that was a great reduction.
Speaker 2:And now I'm looking at 48 in a week to 48 in a year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and now I'm looking at like 24 and I'm like dang, like slowing down is is interesting.
Speaker 2:You do 90 minute sessions or I do. Okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm I really in the. In the future I really would like to maybe only work with like maybe 10 one on ones a year and the rest to be groups. I'm just so in love with group work Like it's my jam. Yeah, it lights. It lights me up in a way that I love my one on ones. I really do. I love the relationships I build and they're so special and the friendships we form and like I love that so much. But I I truly do feel like the greater transformations happen in group containers. I really do, yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 1:I. I think there's a magic to them both. Yeah, because there's something really magical being able to sit in a group. And, you know, sometimes like not that I do this on purpose, but like a couple of weeks ago I had a BAM session and like my internet went out and I was like scrambling to figure out my internet for like I don't know a good five to 10 minutes, and when I came back on, they were just doing the session on their own, yeah, and I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. And you know, this is a group that's been together for a while and so they have. You know, they've built relationships and and so there's something magical about like being in with your peers and there's like a magic that happens in one on ones.
Speaker 1:For me, personally, I tried to pair back my one on ones like a lot Not last year, but the year before that and I missed it too much. Like, as a practitioner, I love one on ones. I don't know what that healthy balance is for me, and it's something that I'm playing with, especially this year, being like Okay, so I'm going to limit my one on one work a lot, but I don't think I could ever let my one on ones go completely Even as I'm like working to like specifically build out my group programs and my group, my group, stuff yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know if I ever want to let one on ones go completely, but definitely less.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I feel like there's this like thing where people talk about oh gosh, what's the word Like, like, almost like? There's this progression of like online coaches, where you move from like one on ones to groups and then like masterminds, and then like memberships, and it's like like there's this like like escalator and the idea is always to like move away from one on ones because it's not a you know, quote, unquote good use of your time. And for me, it's like I get so much out of those relationships that it's like good use of my time or not, like however you define good, Like I, I cherish those relationships.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love them too, I really do. And also, like they're invaluable for, like I mean, coaching for me is a practice, like practitioner has the word practice in it right, because we don't have it all figured out and there's always going to be things that I figure out in one on ones that I don't figure out in groups, and vice versa, yeah, so like I don't think I'll ever totally get rid of the one on ones because they're special and they allow me to go deeper with one person that I can go in a group for sure, which I feel is a really important part of, like, my practice and growth as a practitioner. And they're all like they're always teaching me, but I have the same learning experiences in groups. It's just a little bit different, yeah, but I have no desire to start a mastermind knock on wood.
Speaker 2:I don't have a desire to do that. Maybe it's because I've never been in a mastermind, so I don't know how valuable they actually are.
Speaker 1:I also don't know how that's honestly defined.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what's the difference between a mastermind and a membership?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know, I really don't know.
Speaker 2:We can think about it next.
Speaker 1:It's just like a fancy word for online coaches.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is it like a buzzword, like the nervous system is becoming a buzzword.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe, but yeah, anyways, as always, lovely chatting with you. You too. I hope that folks get a lot out of this conversation. I know that it for me. It's always really helpful to like bounce off nuance with you and look at those like sort of murky spaces. So thanks for bringing that to the table.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, thanks for the coaching. I hope people get a lot out of it. I really do. I mean, you know, I love these conversations so much because we don't ever have an agenda. It's just like it goes wherever it goes and it really is reflective of, like our how we talk. Yeah, you know, minus some of the more intimate details. Yeah, that maybe no one will ever get to know. Yeah, but yeah, this is really fun. Thanks for being here. Everybody, see you next month.