Do you ever feel like you're running on empty, burdened with the societal pressure to be ceaselessly productive? We explore the tangled web of burnout, its impact on mental health, and how our attitudes and systems of work lead to this common state of exhaustion. Just because burnout is common does not mean it is normal and I've asked Accountant Misa Bacon and HR Consultant Candice Elliott to bring their invaluable insights and personal experiences to the table.
In this episode, we dive into the intriguing connection between burnout and how this pattern relates to the water element and winter season. We examine the history of work to unpack why we are influenced to be relentlessly productive and highlight how honoring natural cycles, like winter’s call for rest, is the medicine we all need and crave.
Resources:
Candice Elliott is an HR Mentor. She helps leaders cultivate empowered teams by aligning workflow and communication with the values of sustainability, equity and belonging. She also loves to work with solopreneurs to help them hire their first team member.
Connect with Candice:
Previous episodes with Candice:
Misa Bacon is your go-to bookkeeping expert and QuickBooks guru. As the founder and CEO of Perfectly Kept Books®, it is her mission to help women get comfortable with their numbers so they can feel empowered to make better business decisions. Misa knows that bookkeeping can be a barrier to success, and she is passionate about removing that barrier by making bookkeeping easy and stress-free.
Connect with Misa:
Previous Episodes with Misa:
Kat HoSoo Lee is a trauma-informed Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Rooted Business Podcast. She uses the tools of somatic and emotional alchemy to guide soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. This allows them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, ethical marketing and purposeful service.
Connect with Kat:
This podcast is made possible with sound production by Andre Lagace.
Do you ever feel like you're running on empty, burdened with the societal pressure to be ceaselessly productive? We explore the tangled web of burnout, its impact on mental health, and how our attitudes and systems of work lead to this common state of exhaustion. Just because burnout is common does not mean it is normal and I've asked Accountant Misa Bacon and HR Consultant Candice Elliott to bring their invaluable insights and personal experiences to the table.
In this episode, we dive into the intriguing connection between burnout and how this pattern relates to the water element and winter season. We examine the history of work to unpack why we are influenced to be relentlessly productive and highlight how honoring natural cycles, like winter’s call for rest, is the medicine we all need and crave.
Resources:
Candice Elliott is an HR Mentor. She helps leaders cultivate empowered teams by aligning workflow and communication with the values of sustainability, equity and belonging. She also loves to work with solopreneurs to help them hire their first team member.
Connect with Candice:
Previous episodes with Candice:
Misa Bacon is your go-to bookkeeping expert and QuickBooks guru. As the founder and CEO of Perfectly Kept Books®, it is her mission to help women get comfortable with their numbers so they can feel empowered to make better business decisions. Misa knows that bookkeeping can be a barrier to success, and she is passionate about removing that barrier by making bookkeeping easy and stress-free.
Connect with Misa:
Previous Episodes with Misa:
Kat HoSoo Lee is a trauma-informed Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Rooted Business Podcast. She uses the tools of somatic and emotional alchemy to guide soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. This allows them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, ethical marketing and purposeful service.
Connect with Kat:
This podcast is made possible with sound production by Andre Lagace.
Hello and welcome to the Empowered Curiosity podcast. Today my guests are Lisa Bacon, candice Elliott. We all have heard them before on this podcast. I will link their episodes down below here in the show notes. But today I wanted to bring them on to have a part opening and sort of like normalizing conversation about burnout. We're going to talk about it first in the framework of Dallas philosophy, because I think that a lot of the aspects of the water element of the winter season is going to give us some insight to sort of frame this talk.
Speaker 1:But the reason why I asked these two amazing women on is a they are part of my inner circle that I lean on when it comes to asking for support. Support is going to be one of those big things that we are going to talk about here. We have a little group of like a little collection of entrepreneurs and we've affectionately called ourselves conscious potluck, because we all sort of come to the table and support each other and feed each other, also have a chance to nourish, and so these are two of my gals, lisa and Candice. Welcome, thanks, yeah, so part of the reason why I asked these two specifically from this crew is because Candice is in HR. I know what you call yourself a mentor strategist, like what's along those lines, right?
Speaker 2:HR mentor yeah.
Speaker 1:And and she just has, every time I have a conversation with her I'm just like blown away by how she's able to sort of tie the history of work into sort of how we experience entrepreneurship and work now and how there's almost like these invisible threads where we wonder, well, where the hell did this come from?
Speaker 1:And she's kind of able to like tie them together. So she's kind of our, our history buff and she has looked at businesses of all different sizes and and so I think she's going to bring a really interesting framework of just understanding the commonalities from businesses that are just like a solo canoe all the way up to, you know, businesses that are quite large, and so this concept of burnout I'm sure is one of the things that you work on with within your own business, but then also the context of the businesses that you support as well. And then Misa is my favorite bookkeeper and she's just, she brings heart to a space that like can feel very like just wrote and logical and not very spiritual or intuitive, but like Misa just brings her whole heart into these spaces and she has a history of working in corporate.
Speaker 1:She's also been a single mom, and so this idea of burnout is so very very near and dear to her heart, and it's something that we're going to talk about in terms of like being able to protect your energetic reserves and giving yourself permission to protect those energetic reserves in a way that you're able to show up. You know, for me, so like I'm not sure, a big aspect of that was, like you need to show up for your kid. Yeah, so, yeah. So now you know why I brought these two lovely ladies on and, like I was saying before we hit record, I work best personally when I'm just like in conversation with folks. I definitely did not prepare like a talk about the water element and the winter season, but I'm sure that we'll be able to sort of like get into all those big grants. So if you need like clarifying questions along the way, please ask us. I'm sure that it'll be. It'll open up for like a really fun discussion. So yeah, so the reason why I wanted to pair burnout, which is something that a lot of entrepreneurs really struggle with, is we have a tendency in our culture to validate the young or the more outward expression, that doing the, going out there and, you know, hustling aspects of our personalities, and we have a tendency to feel a lot of guilt and shame when it comes to the being slowing down. I would even put into that category like digesting and giving yourself space to like process and integrate things Like.
Speaker 1:We have this idea that everything needs to be on this like ridiculously fast time line, and the winter season and the water element is a natural part of our cycles. It's a natural part of like how we move and shift, and so I want to be able to bring in the fact that nature also has like a downshift moment when, you know, winter is the most in time of our year. It's where we want to go internal, it's when we want to hibernate. There's value in hibernation and for me, it's really about honoring the fact that when we allow ourselves to rest, when we allow ourselves to, you know, have a chance to like get into our reserves, when we can trust that we have enough reserves to like make us through the winter, then we actually have a much more fruitful spring.
Speaker 1:And so this idea and this concept of like we need to be in like go, go, go mode, like is essentially telling our nervous systems, telling our bodies, that we need to be in like a spring season all the fucking time, and it is not sustainable, it's not okay and like.
Speaker 1:We see this in like tangible ways, in like the linearity of how we want our businesses to grow and how we have like almost this like panic when our businesses go through contraction periods where maybe it's a little bit slower, instead of looking at those times as perhaps a gift or a chance to like reorient or a moment that you can then be like okay, so like how can I get even deeper in alignment with my values. And then we freak out and and and oftentimes we have these stories around why we need to constantly be doing, why we need to be like moving all the time. And I'm being reminded of a client that I saw this week and she was telling me, because we were sort of like unpacking this concept of like, why don't you allow yourself to rest, you know, and she was telling me that all the stories around rest comes with you're lazy you are not a value, you are not being responsible.
Speaker 1:you always need to play playing catch up. She happens to have a sister who did much better than her in school, and so she always felt like she needed to like be working twice as hard as her sister in order to get similar results. And so it's not just it's not good enough to just say like hey, maybe you need to slow down, but like we need to start to unpack a lot of these stories that we as individuals hold but are informed by the collective, and so I'll just pause there and just like see how that's landing with you to and what you want to like add to those little pieces. I feel like you two are being like polite.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking.
Speaker 1:Did you just throw too much at ya.
Speaker 2:No, that was. It was great, I guess you know. For me I'm curious to know, like in Taoist philosophy, more about the element of water and how that connects to the season of winter and then this like propensity that we have for burnout. I think when we look at historical events, things that have happened and the record that we have of history, which is very biased, the thing that comes up for me that's related to burnout is really the separation of the body and the mind and this idea that came out of Europe and the Enlightenment in the time when monarchs were colonizing the world and they were looking for ways to justify behaviors, and so philosophers came up with the mechanization of the human and, as we were enslaving and you know, creating the factory system and which is like based off of the plantation system, and so there's this idea that the body and the mind are separate and that's been pretty ingrained into the power of how our countries have been run and how industrialization and globalization has happened, and so the overarching wisdom quote unquote of business is really in line with that idea that the mind and the body are separate. You can force the body to do whatever it is that you need it to do that. There isn't a connection between a person's emotional state and their physical state, which is not true. Now there's all this research that shows how those things are connected, and I think it is through this. More recent, I mean, scientific studies are one thing, right, and now there are those to sort of prove that there is this connection. But really I think if we all sense into into our bodies and into our feelings, we know that that is connected.
Speaker 2:And so my personal experience of burnout was definitely, you know, forcing myself to continually be productive and to not check in with my body. And there were, you know, there was. I smoked cigarettes all the time and I drank a lot and I didn't sleep well and my diet was totally based on losing as much weight as I possibly could and building a ton of muscle and like, and it depleted me until my body just said, no, you can't do this anymore. Literally, you're going to have to figure something else out. And yeah, so I think it.
Speaker 2:I'm really appreciative to be in a group with other people who recognize that that's not sustainable. And there's a report that came out a few years ago that was about wellness like in the United States, health in the United States in general, and some of the statistics in there are like 80% of people are going to have a mental health problem in their lifetimes and that six out of 10 Americans have a chronic health issue and four out of 10 have more than one chronic health issue. And so it's like, by participating so intensely in this cycle of burnout and forcing ourselves to keep going and not resting, it's really harming us and I think I'll just like pause there. See what that brings up.
Speaker 3:I will add to that a couple of things. So I guess, on the mental health side of it me personally, I'm big advocate for everyone taking care of their mental health. I know that there are spectrums, so some may have, you know, things that are, you know, more difficult to deal with or overcome versus others. But I always say we all have something and we all need to deal with that something, because whatever that something is that we've been carrying, it's walking with us right now in the, in the person that we are and how we're living our life. And so most people don't even take the time to just kind of address those issues to figure out, well, why is it that you can't, you know, can't be still, or why is it that you can't speak up? Because I'm like I know that's something for me and it's still something I'm working on is being able to speak up.
Speaker 3:Because what I discovered is growing up, I didn't feel safe. I never thought, you know, I never thought, oh my goodness, I don't feel safe. You know, in my home, you know, it wasn't like anything physical, but mentally I didn't feel safe. I didn't feel like I could speak up and just be who I am, Because usually that's what happens. We, we know we're kids and we're growing up and we all have our personalities. And then you know life, life starts to hit you and your parents. They put their beliefs and their thoughts and things on you and then it just completely transforms who you should have been as a person. And then, until you actually go back and unpack everything and figure out, okay, why am I like this, what happened and how can I work on that, then you'll just kind of be stuck. You'll be stuck in that one place that you've been in. You know, maybe it was something that happened when you were 10. And you don't like, you don't connect it, because you haven't taken the time to kind of just stop and say wait, what is, what's that connection there? Why is it that I'm struggling with this? Why is it so hard to do this? And it's always connected back to something, usually something in childhood. Nine times out of ten, that's usually what it is. It's something back then that we haven't addressed.
Speaker 3:If we don't take the time to just stop and say, okay, something is going on, because that's exactly what I did. I like I remember when I was like okay, I need to talk to somebody because I don't feel like Nisa. I said something is wrong. I'm like I just don't feel like myself. I need to talk to someone, I need to figure out what's going on and I mean it's, it's been better and I'm like I can. I know what to work on, I know what things I need to address now because, like, I know what the issues are, versus just kind of going through life, just moving along really, and not really taking the time to say what is it that I really need to do to actually be the best version of myself, and not just what society says or what people think I should be, but just really honing in on to the person that I was actually created here, you know, created to be in the first place before the world got ahold of me.
Speaker 1:There's a couple of things that I want to like highlight in both of what you two are sharing, and I love that you brought in this concept of the separation of the mind and the body and how you defined when the body and the mind are working together and harmony. That's what wisdom is, and to me, I think that that is such a crucial part of how water is connected to all of this. The like attribute that we like talk about in Daoist philosophy when it comes to water is wisdom and like. When we think about the like, the capacity of like water to be everywhere, and also like we think about not just water on the surface of the earth that we can see, but like the reserves underneath, is like what sustains everything. And to me, like that's such an expression of like like we've got to protect those reserves. You know, when it comes to earth and it comes to our own like physical resources, but also when it comes to our own internal sort of groundwater level energetic resources, we need to figure out how those pools get fed and it's not going to be just like this quick little shot of like well, I'm going to go eat a carrot and, like, now, my energy is full, it's like that deeper level I think of. Like connection is the first word that comes to mind is like when you feel deeply heard and understood. I think this brings in your piece Misa of like people who like get you without asking you to spend a ton of energy, being someone that you're not. And to me, like that is like deep groundwater level, of like reserves that are being filled. And you know, I think about even my last job at a clinic where a I was being asked to like work a lot, a lot more than my body was comfortable doing in that clinic. But also part of the like energetic like drain and that like energetic leak was because the clinic required me to be a certain level of professionalism that like I personally just like am not like I cuss, I don't wear a bra, I hate makeup, like, like, like there's just like a level of like professionalism that you have to like embody when you're going into these. Like you know, at the time I was also working like a Western IVF clinic and it just was like like sort of that thing that you were talking about yourself. Like guys are trying to like shape me and form me into something that I'm not, and that takes a lot of energy.
Speaker 1:I think, too, an important thing to like, go back to and just like, continue to like, dig into and like Munch on Candice, is this idea that, in order for us to have the level of exploitation and extractivism that is present now in our work systems, we had to like. If you go and like, look at any sort of like colonist, like strategy playbook, the first thing that you do is you separate the people from their religion, because a lot of times, traditional spiritual practices involve a lot of embodiment. It's really rooted in feeling into your body and being like okay with whatever is coming up in your body, and so we need to separate people from that connection from their bodies. And then another piece of that is we have to like move people so far away from their bodies that they, as you were saying, like they become machines, as like part of this system of work.
Speaker 1:And I don't know about you, but I don't think at the time I was working at the clinic. I think I was working like 60 hours a week, like I don't think we're meant to work that much Like that seems like. I look back on those days and I'm like what? The how did I? How did I do this? You know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's still this part of me though that's like, but that's normal, that's what people do Like.
Speaker 2:I know these are the stories that I grew up with and you know, I had someone who commented on my social media at one point when I was talking about, you know, working 20 hours a week or, you know, under 40 hours, and it was just so like cynical and and you know, and and called out this idea that it that I have privilege to be able to not work that much, and I think that that is true because I have the ability to create my own business and to decide how much I'm going to charge for the work that I'm going to do and I'm not trapped in only having to work, you know, minimum wage jobs or under minimum wage jobs, and and so there's like the both and part of that conversation. Absolutely, Because we've created these systems that are not really supporting people and people are stuck in them. That it, it, yeah, it's, I think, a part of my role as a business owner, at least to create opportunity for other people to move into space of having more freedom and choice and support for themselves.
Speaker 1:There's also this aspect of burnout. I'm like watching my husband go through this right now.
Speaker 1:He just got a new job for Spokane Transit, so he's a bus driver and there's almost this like accepted level of like suffering that people are like like well, there's almost I don't want to call it hazing, but it's sort of accepted that the first you know three to six months is just going to be like hell. Like he's working crazy hours right now. He's working not just crazy hours in terms of like time, but in terms of like you know, he has to be at work at five in the morning and then he works until like 10 in the afternoon and then he has like this weird break in the middle and then he goes back to work three hours later and then stays on for another like five or six hours shift. And when he is talking about this to some of the more like like people who have been around for a while, there's this complacency of like oh yeah, like that's just what you do. But then, once you get on the other side, like your hours are great, like just stick it out, buddy.
Speaker 1:And it's actually inspiring him to like want to run for a union position, because he's like this is not okay, like the way that we approach, like there are so many better options than this system that we have now in this company.
Speaker 1:And so, like what can we do to make it pleasant for everyone who like, even if it's like for folks who are just beginning their job, and like this company in particular, complains about having like a big turnover rate in their employees, and it's like, well, no wonder. And so I think that there's like a level of complacency where people just assume that this is the way it's, it's supposed to be. It's always been that way. And you know, I hear about this in in careers like with doctors as well, where there's almost this like hazing period in their residency of of like, yeah, you just have to do the thing, and because I went through it that way, you should also have to go through the hard bit in the same way that I did it. And it's like, if we don't start changing these systems and changing these narratives and I think it does begin on the like individual level like this is just not fucking okay. Like it, the machine is just kind of keep moving the way it's always moved.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like you have to prove that you're good at suffering or like that those kinds of things don't make you suffer and that you can overcome it and be nice to everyone around you, and then you get to have the good schedule.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think it's crazy.
Speaker 3:I think I'll add to that because, from my corporate experience, I mean it's interesting as far as, depending on you, know what you want to do in your career and where you want to go.
Speaker 3:Because I know for me, I'm like I'm a very ambitious person and I'm like I'm going to get in here, I'm going to learn what I need to learn, but then I want to grow and I want to do more and I want to, I want to learn, and most of the time the environment wasn't really supportive of that.
Speaker 3:So you know, because most people, they'll start a job and they'll just, they'll just be there, they're just there and they're just like hey, I'm here, whatever's happening is fine, I'm good with it, I'm just going to go along. But then I'm like me, I'm like, no, I don't want to just be here, I want to grow and I want to move up and I want to do more, so that you know I can be in positions to be able to actually offer more, because I'm like you can't offer much when you're not really in those positions that really have the true power and control, the ones who are really in control of things, those aren't the ones sitting next to you, they're the ones sitting in those higher positions that you probably never see, or you don't even know who they who they are.
Speaker 3:And so you're like well, I'm fine being down here with everyone else but you can't really, you know, make changes from that position.
Speaker 3:And that's that's how I approached my career. I was like I want to be able to do more, I want to be able to help, I want to, you know, be able to transform things, but then realizing that the system wasn't really built for me to do that. So you do all the things, you know, what do they tell you? They're like you know, you work and you work hard and you work your way up and you take on extra work and you do all these things, you work late, you, all of those things that they tell you to do. That's supposed to help you move up and get the better roles, but in reality, it's not really true, because I would like prove yourself. Yes, you have to prove yourself, you know. Or, as I heard at one time, you know you have to have time and seat, and I'm just like what is that? I was like that's interesting, okay, but that that's like how the system is. It's like they tell you to do all these things and they say, if you do this, then this is going to happen. But then you're like okay, I just did all those things now. Now what? And they're like, oh well, you know, but I did say that. But you know, what I really meant is, you know, and they kind of changed this, change the story or change, like, the goalpost. So it's now you're like, okay, well, now, what am I working towards? And it's it's literally to just kind of keep you where you are and then not really allow you to get into the position to really really do some great things among a company, because they're really focused on kind of taking care of their people.
Speaker 3:So people who are similar to them, people who look like them, people who don't really have different perspectives or different thoughts Because if you, you know, you question what they say, or if you're like you have a different viewpoint, they don't like that. They really, they really do want people to be like yes, I will do whatever you say and I'm not going to question it and I will just go along. But I'm like I wasn't. I wasn't that person. I was the one to ask a question, to say, well, why are we doing this or what does this mean? This doesn't make sense. But that's not what they want. They want people to just go along, just get along and not really question anything. And that's why we're like stuck in this continuous cycle, because they know, when they're like they see people who are probably going to cause a little, you know, a little change, they're like wait a minute, let's not, you know, let's keep that person where they are.
Speaker 3:And so then what happens is either that person kind of gives up and they're just like, well, I'll just, I'll just sit here and just, I guess, coast along, or they end up leaving, which then it doesn't help that company, because you know the change that they wanted to bring, they couldn't do it there. And then you know they go somewhere else to try to do the same thing, and then they're hit with the same problem. So it's just a continuous cycle, and then the ones who you really want to be in the positions to make great change never get there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think what you're speaking to is this like this, the fact that we're sitting here, the fact that we have people in our communities who are not just willing but like, like it's part of their like purpose to like create change within the system, and like, what we're being met with is the stubbornness of the status quo, which is, you know, it's stubborn for a reason it's because there are, you know, part of the system works, because the people who are benefiting from the system are going to continue to try to like encourage that status quo.
Speaker 1:And you know, I think about this a lot and I'd love to hear both of your takes on this, because, for me, when I think about my transition away from working for someone into working for myself, it was a fairly I don't want to call it like an easy transition, but in comparison to, like Misa you're a single mother, Candace, you are a mother with a second one on the way Like like I, you know, I don't think that we give women, slash mothers enough credit for how difficult it is to like start to make these changes Because, like, for me, like the only responsibility that I had was like making sure that, like I was going to be able to pay rent and eat and, you know, maybe feed my dog, Like like those are. Those are really really minor responsibilities and so the transition was a little bit easier and so I don't feel like I've had to like sit with the like the deep, deep burnout that maybe mothers experience, because there's a lot being asked of you on a lot of different fronts. So I'm curious how you two have been able to work with that. You know sort of fold that into your work and I mean I hate that like term of like work-life balance, but like like being able to like figure out how all these puzzle pieces sort of like work together in a way that feels really resourceful and sustainable for you.
Speaker 2:Well, I also didn't start my business as a mother. I was. I was, yeah, I just needed to be able to pay for my room rent and all of that and but being a business owner who has become a mother, yeah it. There's just all this you know work of caring for children that we don't really like. I didn't really think about all of it ahead of time. I mean even just like the physical presence of being with them and then, let alone the emotional needs that they have. And then I have my partner lives with us and you know we're together and taking care of Aldernaan, but I still do most of the, you know, taking care of the house and all of those things. As much as he tries to help, he just like doesn't see what I see.
Speaker 2:But I think what really this came to mind earlier, misa, when you were talking about parents and and childhood and what you learn in your childhood, and Kat, what you were saying about water and wisdom, is that after Aldernaan was born, I had this like calling to connect with my well ancestors and to help to repair the, the lineage that I have, and it was not something that I had really ever been interested in before, but it came up through the process of, you know, having him and the difficult that transition that I had postpartum and in, you know, with depression and anxiety and endometriosis and things, while also running a business and taking care of a baby. But it was through, you know, connecting with my well ancestors into this group. That is just so. There's a lot of power there and my Dao is the word power and and then also understanding, just like the amount of you know, suffering that has happened over time and helping to repair that suffering and to bring people back together.
Speaker 2:And I really feel like that's the opportunity that we have in our work is to be able to bring people together and to be able to support each other and to be able to redistribute resources in a fair and equitable way. And and that like spills over into our family too and the way that we're treating our kids and the way that we're, you know, bringing them into community. And yeah, it's just been an interesting transition of like connecting all because we're not separate people. You know I was talking about mind body separation before, but as business owners, it's not like we're a business owner and then a mom or a business owner and our personal life. It's all woven together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I feel like this is such a beautiful expression of that like filling up of the ground waters.
Speaker 1:You know, like it might not seem like you know, connecting with your well, ancestors is really helping with your resources that prevent burnout.
Speaker 1:But like, think about, like, when you heal those ancestral ruins, when you heal those, you know ruptures that might have happened between you and your parents, and even if you aren't able to like heal it, like on like a 3D, I'm able to speak to my mom in this particular way now, sort of away, but like you heal that on an energetic level and as a mom, you're interacting with your kid.
Speaker 1:You know, and you're no longer putting projections on your kid that creates all this like drama and creates these like, like ruptures that then also need to be repaired. Like to me, like this is such a beautiful expression of like taking that concept of groundwater and applying it in like the 3D world, of like, hey, this is an energetic leak and so not just to, like, you know, for production sake, and like this is going to help me get better in my business and be able to put more time in my business, but like from a like grounded, integrated space, you were like this is an energetic leak that needs to be addressed and the byproduct of you addressing that energetic leak is actually something that helps protect you from burnout. If that makes sense, did I like sort of capture that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you did. And also, just I mean the act of taking time away from the busy, like there's, you know, a list of a million things that like need to happen. Right, but being able to take the time out to prioritize whatever it is that fills your cup that's not necessarily the business thing, like it could be meditation or tarot or drawing or whatever it is. When I started my business, I actually was spending more than half of my productive time as a ceramic artist, making pottery and like selling it at the farmer's market and spending a lot of like time doing really creative things, and that was really healing and helping to recover from the burnout that I was feeling at that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, finding the ways to not just like stop the leaks but to like access your creative, energetic spirit, I think, through your work and through other things that you enjoy doing. I mean it could just be cooking. I don't love cooking, but I love cooking because I love cooking, I mean it could just be cooking. I don't love cooking right now because it feels like a chore, but I have loved it in the past.
Speaker 3:I would say for me. Well, first let me say one of my favorite things to do is to sleep, and that is literally the thing. I do not compromise on my sleep. Like you know, people are like they stay up late to do this. I don't do that. I'm like I'm in the bed. I'm in the bed early. I wake up early, just naturally. So I'm like I'm up early and if I need a nap, I go take a nap and I'm okay with it. I'm like it can wait, it'll be there when I wake up, and you and for me, it's usually refreshing and I'm reinvigorated.
Speaker 3:And people are always surprised when I say like, cause I'm like I don't drink coffee, I don't like I don't do anything like. They're like how do you not drink coffee? And I was like I go to sleep. Yeah, because, like I remember reading a book about sleep, because you know, I was just like, and like the things that it was saying just sleep, how important just sleep is. And I'm like, well, if I want to live a nice long life with everything that I have to do, I'm like I'm going to make sure I get some sleep. If it doesn't get done today, it'll get done tomorrow, and that's something that was hard for me to kind of let go of. You know, shifting out of the corporate world into entrepreneurship, because you know, when you're working a job you're like they tell you like this is the deadline and this is what you're expected of, and usually there's some type of metric or something behind it. So you have to perform and you have to meet that Because of course you know I have to. You know I don't want to be, you know, mediocre, I want to be great. So it's what I want to be, all those goals. But then when you kind of shift to, you can kind of just kind of flow with it and go with whatever works for you. I've really really take a hold of that, and so I'm like if I need a nap in the middle of the day, I'll take a nap and then I'll pick it back up later.
Speaker 3:And then knowing when my daughter's in school, she gets picked up and dropped off every single day by me and for me now car line is not my favorite thing, but I will say from it's very, very important because I'm like I didn't get picked up and dropped off every day by my mom. She was working, she didn't even have that option. So we either walked or we had to find a ride, or, once my siblings had cars, maybe they would pick us up but maybe not. So it wasn't like that consistency where I know my mom has dropped me off. I know she's picking me up every day and my daughter, she loves it, like she's just like no, I don't want to ride the bus and I don't want to. And I feel like it's such a great thing for me to be able to offer that to her because she knows that you know, my mom is going to show up when I need to be there, like I work, when I need to work, but if she has something going on I'm there. And being able to just drop things and show up whenever I need to, I really, really appreciate.
Speaker 3:Because that's not something that most parents have, and especially most single parents have, because most of the time when you're a single parent, you're probably doing a lot to kind of keep up with taking care of yourself, taking care of your kids, being able to support just y'all's lives in general, and you don't get to show up to every event you don't get to, you know, drop your kids off and pick them up. So it's usually. The kids are usually trying to, you know, figure things out and find ways home or have to take the bus and do all these other things, and you're not there, like I'm, my, my daughter. We're always there, like I'm always there for her. She knows I'm around and she knows I'm going to be there. And for me that's really, really important for me, because I know that's what she's going to remember, because I think about what do I remember?
Speaker 3:I remember not getting picked up, you know, and you know the long walks home, and for her not to experience that, that is just very special to me, because I had that option now but before I didn't have that option when I was going to work and commuting and you know she had to do after school care and you know all these other things.
Speaker 3:Versus, you know we get home at the same time every day. She knows what, you know, she knows what the schedule is and I didn't really have to rely on anyone else, as far as you know, making sure she got somewhere. Because, like I think about her now, I don't really know how she would get to and from school if I was still, you know, going into an office every day and commuting, because back then I did, I'd had a little bit more support, I had my mom to kind of fill in those gaps, but I'm like now I don't even have my mom there, so it's really like all on me as far as making sure that she is supported and she's taken care of and where she needs to be. And being able to be in a space to be able to do that is just really, really special and important to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like if we can tie this back to this like conversation around burnout.
Speaker 1:Like the piece that I'm hearing is like sort of similar to what Candice was sharing, like imagine the like energetic leak that would have happened if you had this like guilt looming over you know about, oh man, I really really want to be able to pick up my kid from school and, by prioritizing that for yourself, you know, while you're not you know technically seed and what it was at the time in seed with your wife, like it actually is helping you with the prevention of burnout.
Speaker 1:Because this is a thing that I'm hearing not just as like a, like a, something that fills that energy gap or fills that energy leak, but it actually fills your groundwater as well. It's like getting like that nice rain shower that goes deep into the earth because, like, you get to spend more time with your kid. There's something really special about being home at the same time, being able to like share meals together, having some sort of like rhythm and cadence. That feels really just like. Not just like, oh, we're stopping an energy leak here, but we're also filling up the groundwater here and go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's sort of this mismatch too of those two systems of like just work basically being expected to happen from nine to five and then school, which is not nine to five, so something totally different. And I had a similar experience growing up of like you know, how am I gonna get home? You know, is my mom actually gonna be here today or not? Like and it yeah, my son is little, so we haven't quite gotten to the part of figuring out school yet, but it's just so wild that we have decided to do these. I mean, it really assumes that there will be a parent, like two parents, and that one of them won't be working so that they can do all of the other things to make the home happen.
Speaker 1:And I think an important thing to like note here, too, is, you know, if somebody's listening and they don't have the choice of being able to pick up their kid from school, that's okay too. I think that there's an aspect of like burnout, where we feel, because our resources are so low, it's really hard to see choice. You know, and you know, maybe the thing that you don't wanna prioritize is picking up your kid from school because you don't have the same background that, like me, sam and Candice have. But maybe the thing that you do wanna prioritize is something else, like whether that is making sure that you all have breakfast together, whether that's making sure that you all are able to go out for a walk every day. You know, I think that the piece here that feels really important to name is if there is something that is causing guilt or dysregulation in your own system and sort of like. Look at the systems that you are participating in, whether it is work or your romantic partnership or your friendships or your relationship with your kids, and there's a possibility that you can, you know, stop that energy leak from happening, because how many times a day, like when you have something that you feel guilty about? How many times a day does your mind just wander onto that topic and sort of like, give that topic a little bit of space and like a little bit of like illumination? So, instead of doing that like, can you create options for yourself so that you can prioritize these things that might be pulling away from your energy in a way that you don't even realize? I think that's important to name there Something that I wrote down and I just forgot to go back to it.
Speaker 1:Candice, you were talking about that numbness and like numbing behaviors. When it comes to like that mind-body connection and how we have a tendency to, I think the thing I wanna add to that is like we have a tendency to like normalize those behaviors and almost even like celebrate those behaviors and instead of like looking at those behaviors as actually a body saying like this is I feel kind of not great about this, or like I feel really horrible about this, or like we need to fucking stop. Like there's a way in which we like say, oh, you've had a hard day at work, like go have a six pack, you've had a really rough afternoon, maybe you should just go outside and smoke a cigarette and instead of being like ooh, actually, why do you feel the need to numb and why do you feel the need to like, not listen to the signals from your body? I feel like our system, like, has this way of giving us and out when it comes to the ways in which we override the signals from our body.
Speaker 1:And so can you expand on that a little bit? Candice? I know that you brought that up and I wanted to pick out your brain a little bit more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I noticed that when I'm like engaging in different kinds of numbing behaviors, it's definitely because my system actually needs rest and so instead of doing the restful thing, then I'll go do whatever it is. And so many years ago I was just overriding all the time. I mean, I was smoking a pack of cigarettes a day, drinking at night, exercising multiple times a day, had a very regimented kind of food situation that was going on and all of it was to like mask kind of well, on the one hand it was like masking this burnout that was like creeping up and happening underneath the surface, and then on the other side, it was like to be able to keep me going at the rate that I was going, which was insane, and also not sleeping very much. But even now I noticed that sometimes I'm not going for, like, a beer or a glass of wine because I wanna drink a beer or a glass of wine. It's because I've had a really hard day.
Speaker 2:And so then there's like this choice you know you can choose to do that thing that is the numbing behavior, or choose to do something else that is actually gonna help you and your system rest and heal.
Speaker 2:You like go to sleep, or if sleep is not accessible, which, like for me, when I'm all hyped up, that's not gonna work for me. But getting in some warm water might be the thing, or going for a walk, or transitions are difficult for me, like between work, which is for me very action kind of oriented, and then home life, which is more it's a nurturing kind of thing that I'm doing more at home, and so the transition between the work and the home can be really tough. But having something in the middle there that is not, you know, drinking or smoking, that is instead going for a walk and listening to a podcast or reading some tarot or you know something like that, helps, yeah, that yeah, especially after so many years of just overriding. When I quit smoking cigarettes too, there was a lot that was emotionally happening for me that I needed to process in order to actually stop smoking, and I worked with a therapist to do that because I didn't really have the tools to do it myself.
Speaker 1:Then yeah, I also think it's worth looking at these, you know, numbing agents, and asking yourself like, not without, not with, like shame, but like asking yourself, like what am I getting out of this relationship with you know, cigarettes or drinking, or whatever it is? Because I know that, like I've had, I had a client I'm thinking of in particular where she tried so many times to like stop cigarettes and stop smoking, and you know, and when we got into it I was like well, what are you getting out of that relationship? And she was like it's the only time during my day and she worked like it was when I was on the Vancouver and like Vancouver, I don't know why they work the hours that they do and she was just like it's the only time of my day where I get to have like five minutes to myself, you know, and so it's. It was fulfilling a very, very real need for her to like take a break, and she didn't know how to ask for that break without having the tool of the cigarette. And so again, it kind of goes back to what you were saying, candace, of like, unless we can start actually feeding ourselves in the ways that our energetic systems want to need, we're always going to be leaning on those numbing agents because it is a tool for us to get that need met.
Speaker 1:You know and you know I have I've struggled with, like, my relationship with alcohol and now I'm really happy in that, like, I have a really good relationship with alcohol because it feels like something that, like I don't know, a couple of times a month I get to go have like a fancy cocktail with dinner and it feels like a celebration. But I still have those days where, like, oh, I'm really craving you know that whiskey and I know that my system wants to numb with whiskey, which means that if I have that first drink, I'm going to have seven or eight. And those are the days in which I have to like really attune back into my body and be like, oh, what are you actually needing? Because it's not the whiskey. Whiskey is not like an essential nutrient that you are missing in craving.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It kind of brings up something that I was thinking before, which is, like you know, with relationship to burnout, like what fits right now and what doesn't fit right now, like what is the thing that is aligned and for you like appropriate or correct, bringing up like human design kind of language, I guess and that but and then also what isn't the thing that fits right now. And we go through seasons of different things fitting and not fitting, and working in different ways and not working in other ways. And I, a couple of years ago, have started to have this practice of pausing things, like I'm not necessarily not doing things, but I'm going to put them on the back burner for a bit and see what happens with them. And I noticed that things that I pause, some of them just disappear and they never come back, and that is what it is.
Speaker 2:But other things it's like they needed time underground or you know, in their winter to reshape for the next phase of what they'll become, and that really, you know, it makes me think of winter, when the ground needs to just rest and we have snow and then the snow melts and then we inevitably come into spring. Yeah, but some things just don't come with us into the next year, either Some things. They we composted them and they became soil for something else, or we burned them and they're not coming back, or you know. Then there's other things that maybe we can't and they're sitting there in the cupboard so we can use them during the winter and yeah.
Speaker 1:I think you just described that really beautifully. It's like that pause is very intentional. Intentionality is like one of the words that I think of when it comes to like being in a Yin state because not everything can be watered.
Speaker 1:You know, as a manifesting generator, I have a tendency to like wanna do all the things all at once and that pause, you know, that's I'm glad that you named that, because I don't think I even realize that that was a new practice of mine but, like, that pause allows you to intentionally decide where you want your energy going and I think that, like as you were talking about, you know, everyone gets to choose what feels most aligned to them, something that I hear from a lot of generators, and manifesting generators in particular, because our energy tends to be a bit more young.
Speaker 1:We have a tendency to like wanna do a lot of things and there is this sort of like growing narrative in the personal development work of like really encouraging people to rest and, you know, slow down and be zen and like, yes, all of that is good. And if you tell a manifesting generator to like rest all the time where, like, if you tell a projector that they're like, oh my God, yes, thank you, please. But like you tell you know a manifesting generator or a generator that and that can actually bring up a lot of stimulation, it can bring up a lot of like dissonance in their system and also a bit of shame. I've had clients who are like I'm just naturally really ambitious, am I doing it wrong? Or like I have a client who's like a one-on-one client of mine and she's like I get so much stress on the first day of my weekend. She works three days a week on that. Like fourth day of the week she's supposed to be resting, she has her entire calendar cleared and she's just like I have so much stress now because I've told myself I can't be learning things, I can't be reaching out to clients, I can't be doing anything for my business.
Speaker 1:And when we opened up the permission slip for her to you know what, like you get to do the thing that feels most aligned on that day. And if on that day you wanna take a class on trauma or you want to read a book on internal family systems or you wanna learn about somatic practices, like that's the thing that you get to do the day. That's kind of the really brilliant thing about being an entrepreneur is like you get to do whatever it is that you want. So like, don't deny yourself that sort of permission slip. And so I think it's about sort of going back to what you were saying, candice, at the beginning of like, what does your body want? You know what is your body crave. And, lisa, I love that you're so connected to your body and it's keyed for rest. I don't know if you remember the book that you read. Do you have a-?
Speaker 3:Oh, why are we sleep? Matthew Walker. Yes, and it's like cause. Even in the book it says like this is a book, if you need to fall asleep, it's okay.
Speaker 1:It literally gives you a permission slip to sleep. Yes, I love that.
Speaker 3:That's a good audio clip to listen to like before you go to bed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I love that book, matthew Walker, so we'll put that in the show notes too, because there's a lot of I think there's a lot of value on both. It's like let's not make any aspect of this cycle wrong or bad, and so yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I'm a generator, so I definitely understand and I also understand, like I do, like when my energy is up, like I like to do things, I like to go, and but then at the same time, when my body is like, okay, let's take a minute, I will take a minute and I'll stop, but once I like, if I get that little power nap in there, then I'm ready to go again. So I do have more energy than probably most people and that's just all my natural energy. But I do get my rest when I need it, because when my body is talking to my child listen, because that's something else I'm focusing on is your body is always talking. That's something my therapist said in our last session. She was like your body is always talking to you, but it's a matter of if you're actually paying attention.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because most of us aren't, because we're just, we're so disconnected and we're just like oh, I felt that, I felt some uneasiness or I felt that pain or I felt something, and you just ignore it and it's like ah, it'll go away or it's okay, rather than addressing okay, your body is telling you something, it wants you to do something, it needs you to slow down, it needs you to stop.
Speaker 3:It needs you to do something to address whatever it's telling you before it gets worse, because it always gets worse If you just ignore it. It's going to get worse and we don't want it to get to that point. We want to stay in complete alignment, but we have to pay attention, and so now I pay attention very, very intentionally, like even when I meet new people, if I feel so, I'm like mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Like it's not sitting right with me and I'm like that's probably not somebody I want to connect with or work with. And just paying attention, like that doesn't seem like something big, but it's like it's so important because if you're really listening to your body and letting it lead you, instead of just kind of just well, let me just go along and do whatever it'll probably lead you down the correct path for you to make sure that you're doing the things and connecting with the people and running the business in a way that is best in alignment for you.
Speaker 3:And not just what everyone says you should do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which I mean like that brings in this like concept where, like, like, your body doesn't want to be burnt out, like it definitely does not want to be tired and lethargic and uninspired and feeling like you're playing catch up all the time. And so, like, even this concept of like ooh, I'm gonna feel into my body when I'm meeting with somebody who's a potential colleague or meeting somebody who's a potential client. Like that, your body is so keenly attuned to what kind of people you wanna work with, who you wanna be surrounding yourself with, and so if it's giving you a no, a very strong no, then you've gotta listen to it. If it's giving you a okay like, maybe we should just check, continue to check this person out, we've gotta listen to that too, because I don't know about you, but I've had clients where I've felt that in my body and I've said yes anyway, and they end up taking up so much time and energy.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it is a matter of like misalignment because, like I said yes when this isn't really actually the thing that I really wanna be working with. Sometimes it's coming from a place of this person's not actually a safe person to work with and I really need to be paying attention to that. That came up for me when I hired my first tax preparer is like I really should have listened to. Those messages of this person is not really like open to me, asking questions, and so I need to tune into that and see is that a level of safety that I need for myself? And so like I think about how much energy I would have saved had I listened to my body at that first, outside of like who this person is not okay and we need to be bringing our bodies into the conversation. So I love that you brought that up, lisa.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm just thinking about a few clients who I wish that I had I've been. I don't actually have a really great process on the front end of filtering out people who might not be the right fit to work with me, and that's something I've been really wanting to develop, cause there are a few that have happened over the last year or so where I think if I had asked the right questions I could have sussed it out, but maybe not, I don't know. There's also just that process of getting to know people and then figuring out how to express boundaries. I think that's a part of burnout too. That just came up for me as you were speaking is being able to have a strong know when something isn't right or if something shifts and you have to draw a line to protect, kind of your own energy and capacity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that sometimes happens for me with billing with clients, cause I do some project based work and you know, after a certain point if the invoice hasn't been paid, then there's this conversation that happens around okay, well, we're going to stop work until that happens. And yeah, it's like a learning process of business ownership too, to figure out, you know, like what are you comfortable with With some clients it may feel one way to work together and with others a different way. And how do you pick what's the best?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And also having some forgiveness around when you say yes to someone that you should have said no to because, it's all information for your body.
Speaker 1:You know your body is going to metabolize that and say like, ooh, the next time we feel somebody who brings on this particular kind of sensation in my body, you know, maybe we should pay attention a little bit more closely. So I think that and that's going to be different for each person so I think that we're all going to have to go through a couple of you know, maybe misaligned clients before we, like get a sense of like, ooh, this is the perfect fit, yeah, and so it's all information that your body is processing.
Speaker 3:Exactly. And that's the thing because you can, once you get that information, then you can make the better decisions going forward. Because I know I've had many, many conversations, like with my therapist, where I'm like you know, when you think back on something you're like I didn't feel good, like I didn't like feel good about that situation or that person, like when I think back, but it's like now I'm like when I feel that feeling, I know it's a no, automatically, it's just a no. I don't even need to question it or think about it, because I remember how it felt then and what the result was. And if I want to avoid having to deal with that again, I just know once I feel that and acknowledge it and say, okay, no, this is a no for me.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, yeah, agreed, just trying to think through. Is there anything else that you guys are feeling like needs to be brought into the conversation?
Speaker 3:I think I would just kind of tying kind of like everything together, like in adding on about the boundaries, because boundaries is that's definitely something that came up for me, like through therapy, because I think most of us lack boundaries just in general, because you know, we were never taught boundaries.
Speaker 3:You know our parents didn't have boundaries. You know, we're just out here, you know we don't know. You know we don't know what boundaries are. We think everything is okay, but just once we actually first, once we determine what is it that we need to address and figure out and what are our boundaries, what do we want our boundaries to be? And then we actually have to express those boundaries. And that's, I think that's probably the harder part is you're like, okay, I want this boundary, but then you actually have to say it and express it and let people know that this is your boundary.
Speaker 3:And I think that's the harder part because, since it is, especially if we're not used to doing that, we kind of just kind of like well, that's my boundary, but no one knows about it.
Speaker 3:It's like a secret, and so then people continue to do the same things to you and then you get burned out because you're like well, I have this client and I really don't like this client and I don't know what to do.
Speaker 3:I don't know what to say to them, and so you just keep working and keep doing things and you burn yourself out because you're exerting all this energy on someone that you probably don't even want to deal with, or you haven't presented the boundaries to them to say, hey, if we're going to work together, this is how it's going to go, versus just let them do whatever they want to do. And I think, especially as business owners, it's so, so hard to present those boundaries because it's kind of like well, I can do that, it's not a problem. But then when you do it once and then they're like oh, you just open the door to something that you probably don't want in the end. And so just like understanding what your boundaries are and then being comfortable and safe enough to actually express it and really hold firm to what those boundaries are and I think that's probably the harder part is to do that, because we're dealing with humans and you never know how someone else is going to take you putting a boundary out there.
Speaker 1:Well, I think the comfortable and safe part is the really important piece there, because when I talk about this with clients, I feel like there's a missing step in there, just in terms of like this is what's OK and what's not OK, and then I have to say that. But I think the missing step is in between, where you have to examine, where you got that belief of I can't hold that boundary, and for a lot of people that exist in the space of like, I'm going to come off like I don't like that person, like I don't care about that person. I'm going to come off like I'm being mean or like I'm hurting that person's feelings or I am maybe taking on too much responsibility for being flexible when this other person can also be flexible. And so that's where I find a lot of people struggle. Is that like mid-stage point and why it's so hard to like, actually say the thing, and that might even apply to you in an internal space.
Speaker 1:I know that over trial and error. I don't know why, but my brain does not want to write between the hours of like 2 and 5. It's like the writing part of my brain just gets completely shut off. And I used to be like have all the shame around, like well, I set aside this time for writing, like I should be writing here, and as soon as I gave myself the permission to let go of those three hours of your day that I think should be good for writing and find a different time where my brain actually wants to flow in that way, and I find that like 7 o'clock to 8 o'clock is perfect, and then like 9 o'clock to like 10 30 is also perfect for some weird reason.
Speaker 1:And so it's like you get to have boundaries not just with people but also with yourself. And I think that when you're able to address those internal beliefs that happens between the like this is OK and this is not OK, and then being able to like say that out loud that's where you get to hold really embodied and empowered boundaries for both yourself and for your clients or whoever it is that you're working with, and I think that that's really important to personally. I think it's important to examine that space, because it can be such a scary space with somebody like who's a therapist or a coach or a mentor, because there's difficulty to like really see an unpack that when it's just like an internalized dialogue in your head that you've never questioned before. And so, yeah, that's kind of the little addition that I want to put to this conversation around boundaries, because, yeah, you're totally right, that's like such an essential part of not getting burnt out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think I mean for me and Misa, you brought this up I mean being raised as a girl like I wasn't supposed to really express boundaries.
Speaker 2:You know, even now I feel like it's my job to be the one that molds to the needs of others and to be of service to them and to be helpful and all of these things. And so being able to express a boundary and have it respected, for me that signals OK, this is a safe person, this is a person that I want to keep being in relationship, whereas if I express a boundary and it's overridden, then for me that's not a safe space. And when we get into work relationships, it's often that we're expected to overrule our needs and our boundaries in order to be able to deal with whatever is happening at work. And a great, wonderful thing about entrepreneurship, I think, is this ability that we have to be able to say this is OK, this isn't OK, this is how I want my work to look, this isn't how I want it to look, yeah, absolutely, and I mean that override that you were talking about is really for the sake of productivity.
Speaker 1:I remember my old boss I would state a boundary and he would override it. I would state a boundary and he would override it, and all the reasons why he would come up for me to override my boundaries is because, oh, this is going to bring more people into the clinic, this is going to up our revenue by x%, and so having those be the markers of what our value of doing is, that's our really shitty way to set up a system. I'm sorry, like that, just really there's no other way to say that. Yeah, I will say too, though, that as an employer, I now have two people on my team.
Speaker 1:I sometimes feel like I need to relinquish a bit of I want to say control, because, like I feel like I have been so burned out that I'm so worried about burning other people out, and Every once in a while, you know like Andre will send me a message at like 10 a 10 pm On Slack, or like, like last night, alicia sent me a message at like midnight on Slack, and and Like it's not a thing that I want to like encourage in my employees, but part of this work is also like I have to trust that they are setting their own hours in a way that works for themselves and their life, and that can sometimes be a Hard sort of like internal battle that I personally have as like an employee here.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but just like.
Speaker 2:Just like anyone you know, sometimes you're just gonna be up at midnight doing things, yeah.
Speaker 1:And like. The thing is that, like, like I said earlier, my brain loves writing at like 9 o'clock and Like I'm technically working at that hour, but it's because I've given myself like the afternoon off and so like, like, I need to like. I think that's part of Like really pushing my own control issues. It's like I don't think twice about it when I'm up at 9 o'clock writing an Instagram post, but like.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I feel like I need to, like, stop myself. Okay, so they're grown-ups, they're going to, they're going to set up their schedule the way that they need to set up their schedule, and I'm, and I'm, out of your.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Just adding to that, because it's also in the sleep book where it talks about how, you know, we're all different as far as, like, some people are more productive and can get things done earlier in the day. Some people like to do things later and Society has been created around people who were more so, you know, people who get up early and go throughout the day versus Actually leaning into what works best for people because I know there's some people who they they cannot get it, they can't get up early, they they're just like don't wake me up early, let me start my day late, let me work late or whatever the cases and they do so much better Versus being forced to wake up early and report somewhere at 9 o'clock because that's not what really works for them and in their body and their system, which is so unfortunate. Because if people were able to just really lean into what works best for them, we would have so much more productivity and people would be happier and more things would get done, because people are actually doing things when and how they actually need to do it, versus being told you need to fit into this box in this system and do it this way when it doesn't really work with them, and that that's, I mean, that's the beautiful part about entrepreneurship is you can you know If you, if you're someone who likes to do stuff late at night, you can do it late at night and no one can tell? You know, and you know if you're like me, you're early, yeah, I'm up early in the morning, so you know, and that works for me, but I'm in bed early. So Having that flexibility is a beautiful thing and I wish it was something that you know just Companies in general would offer their employees, because I don't think they would realize how Much further they would get, not just in their business but also with Retention of their employees, if they're able to really kind of lean into what their employees need and a lot of times Like, yes, your employee needs a good paycheck to take care of themselves, but they also need things that that's in alignment with them.
Speaker 3:So I'm like if you want an employee to be super productive but you're telling them to come in at eight o'clock and they're like struggling to get up every morning, you're, you're never gonna have a productive employee from that, you know in that aspect, from that person. But if you told them, hey, do what you need to do. If it's 10 o'clock, go ahead, do it at 10 o'clock and you would have a different result. But that's not how you know society has been created, and If we could shift that, that would be wonderful, because things would just be so much better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I mean, I remember that chapter, now that you're mentioning it, and I think he talked about it in terms of, like biodiversity and like in a tribal setting, like we needed some people to be up at night because we had to like worry about predators, and so we have, you know, night owls and morning birds. For a reason is because you know it was gonna serve the collective to have some people who naturally or biologically wired to be up late at night Versus like waking up early in the morning. Candice, I'm curious, do you Know why we have like a nine-to-five schedule like what, what that, what their origins and the roots of that?
Speaker 2:How it all happened.
Speaker 1:It's okay. If you don't, I know I'm putting you on the spot here.
Speaker 2:Well, I know that the 40 hour work week was a thing that happened in the US in the 30s. There were like a lot of different laws that happened at that time that were meant to like protect the workforce, so their child labor laws. That happened in the early 1900s. Minimum wage became a thing then and at that time Minimum wage was meant to be a living wage, like to get people out of poverty, instead of what's happening now, where it's like pushing more people into poverty. And then the 40 hour work week was related to that and I something is coming up in my memory around like a daylight hours and so having people working while it's bright outside, um, but yeah, I mean I just for me.
Speaker 2:It's not realistic For me to work even the same hours every day, like I need variety in my work life in order to stay interested in it. So when I was working in a larger company and it was like you had to be there at 830 and be there all the way until 430 and you're expected to be at your desk the whole time and you get like a half hour an hour for lunch, I was just like I can't ever come back from lunch, like this is a trap and to not have any variation and like, oh, some mornings Maybe it'll take me longer to get in, and some days Maybe I'll leave earlier or stay later, depending on what's going on, and having the work Working hours tied to the work that I was doing. That just makes more sense to me than having it be Like you have to be here from this time to this time and you're going to work on things while you're here and it doesn't really like, I don't know, it doesn't really matter how much or how little work there is to do.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's one of the things that totally fills. My cup too is like I Like thrive on novelty.
Speaker 1:And the way that I've set up my work week means that, like I, I literally will like look at my schedule on the morning and be like, okay, cool, like that's what we've got on the calendar today. And yeah, you know, like Yesterday I was just posting on Instagram that it was like one of my favorite work days ever, because it was like I got to have a monthly community call and then had a like colleague meeting with Natalie Ross, who I like collaborate with occasionally for conscious marketing, and then I had a like a client Her first session and like it was just like, like such a variety of things.
Speaker 1:And then in the afternoon I had plenty of time to go dip in my river and and so it was just like like, oh man, I love that my work feels like so nourishing, just in the way that it is set up, in that like I wake up every morning and I have like I kind of don't know what I'm doing that day until I wake up that morning. Yeah, and that's like an important thing for me. I like don't love having a set like sort of like regimented schedule. Well, my dears is that feeling complete to y'all.
Speaker 2:I think so I feel like we could just keep talking for oh, yeah, sure, but yeah, that feels pretty complete. On the burnout topic yeah, pretty cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean, obviously you two are like, so welcome to if you're ever like in the space of like. Hey, I just want to like jam about this. It's just schedule something to throw it up on the podcast, because, yeah, I love you too. Love you guys too, so let's get folks away to find you. So all the places on the intro webs that y'all are.
Speaker 3:For me you can. So, of course, my website. So perfectly kept bookscom. And it's the same on any social. Well, whatever social I'm on, instagram is the main one, but if you search, if you search perfectly kept books, you will find me put it that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and for me Fortress and Flourishcom, and then same on Instagram.
Speaker 1:Perfect. Well, thanks for being here and thanks for having this conversation about burnout with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank, you for having me.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you for having us.