I am a recovering perfectionist. Instead of thinking that I need to "heal" perfectionism, it has felt softer to think of perfectionism as something to make more malleable. Join me, Trauma Educator Lindsey Lockett and Messaging Guide Natalie Ross as we delve into the entangled web of perfectionism that has left us feeling disempowered.
We explore perfectionism from different angles: the societal pressures, health anxiety, and the role of social media in perpetuating perfectionism. Our conversation will arm you with tools to approach perfectionism in your own life with compassion. We'll explore transitioning from freeze to play, the need for pleasure, and the importance of manageable tasks. Get ready to navigate the labyrinth of perfectionism to emerge with a kinder relationship to yourself.
Resources:
Both Natalie and Lindsey are repeat guests of The Rooted Podcast with too many episodes to link. Here are my 2 faves:
Lindsey Lockett is a trauma educator and coach who specializes in working with the autonomic nervous system. Through coaching, workshops and her podcast, Lindsey guides her clients and students toward building trusting relationships with their bodies.
Connect with Lindsey:
Natalie Ross is a magical nature lover who helps heart-centered service providers convey the value of their offers and share themselves with confidence. She takes a trauma-informed approach based on her training in Somatic Experiencing, and she combines that with years of experience running a 6-figure magical membership and producing a podcast with millions of downloads.
Connect with Natalie:
Kat HoSoo Lee is a trauma-informed Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Rooted Business Podcast. She uses the tools of somatic and emotional alchemy to guide soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. This allows them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, ethical marketing and purposeful service.
Connect with Kat:
This podcast is made possible with sound production by Andre Lagace.
I am a recovering perfectionist. Instead of thinking that I need to "heal" perfectionism, it has felt softer to think of perfectionism as something to make more malleable. Join me, Trauma Educator Lindsey Lockett and Messaging Guide Natalie Ross as we delve into the entangled web of perfectionism that has left us feeling disempowered.
We explore perfectionism from different angles: the societal pressures, health anxiety, and the role of social media in perpetuating perfectionism. Our conversation will arm you with tools to approach perfectionism in your own life with compassion. We'll explore transitioning from freeze to play, the need for pleasure, and the importance of manageable tasks. Get ready to navigate the labyrinth of perfectionism to emerge with a kinder relationship to yourself.
Resources:
Both Natalie and Lindsey are repeat guests of The Rooted Podcast with too many episodes to link. Here are my 2 faves:
Lindsey Lockett is a trauma educator and coach who specializes in working with the autonomic nervous system. Through coaching, workshops and her podcast, Lindsey guides her clients and students toward building trusting relationships with their bodies.
Connect with Lindsey:
Natalie Ross is a magical nature lover who helps heart-centered service providers convey the value of their offers and share themselves with confidence. She takes a trauma-informed approach based on her training in Somatic Experiencing, and she combines that with years of experience running a 6-figure magical membership and producing a podcast with millions of downloads.
Connect with Natalie:
Kat HoSoo Lee is a trauma-informed Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Rooted Business Podcast. She uses the tools of somatic and emotional alchemy to guide soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. This allows them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, ethical marketing and purposeful service.
Connect with Kat:
This podcast is made possible with sound production by Andre Lagace.
Hello friends and welcome to the podcast. We've got a couple of repeat guests today. Y'all have. If you've been around in my world, I'm obsessed with these two women, natalie Ross and Lindsay Lockett. Natalie and I teach conscious marketing together. Lucy and I are just I'm just convinced that we're like internet besties and we get to meet very soon. So I'm really excited about that. Yeah, at the end of this month actually, I get to like actually hug Lindsay in person. I'm really stoked about that.
Speaker 1:So the topic of our conversation today is perfectionism and, oh my gosh, this comes up in so many different ways. But I want to start out just with a little bit of an introduction into five element theory, like metal element energy and fall season energy and you know, as you guys know, I always like it when it's like a bit of a back and forth. So as questions or comments come up, please, please interject. But the reason why I paired this, like nature energy with perfectionism is because as the season starts turning into autumn, we start to get, we're shifting basically from like a very sort of like, a very sort of young, open, expressive sort of space and we're moving into like in energy and, as we move, into an energy. For people who live with land, who are like living in rhythms with land, not those of us who are living in seasons and can get pineapples at any point of the year what we start seeing is this discerning quality that happens, this like sort of like cutting quality that's happening, and what I mean by that. It's like a, it's like a time to sort and a time to be like okay. So this is what I want to store and preserve for the winter and like to nourish me through the winter, and this is what I want to like basically let go of we also. This is also the time when, if you're raising animals, this is when you would mostly be harvesting animals as well, because it's, you know, easier to harvest them now, put them into storage and not have to feed them through the winter time.
Speaker 1:So, like I'm just sort of like bringing in this concept of like a seeing eye that is looking for this is good. This is not an alignment. This is a space where you know we want to preserve this, we don't want to preserve this. So, like that discernment quality is really important in sort of like that autumn metal time, and you know the first sort of like thing that I think of when I think of metal as an element is the knife Right, and so this like again, there's no sort of like black and white here. There's or sorry, there's no sort of like nuance here. It's all sort of like black and white. It's a very sort of like yes, and no kind of a space.
Speaker 1:And so the reason why I wanted to talk about perfectionism in this time is this concept of not being able to see nuance.
Speaker 1:Is, I think, where I start to get into my own like perfectionistic, like mindset of like it has to be this way or that way, it has to look this way or that way, and particularly like when it comes to showing up in the online space.
Speaker 1:I mean, this came up with one of my clients this morning is she was scared that because she still has emotions, essentially like she was starting to get dysregulated about certain things.
Speaker 1:She's like am I even good enough to be a coach in this space, you know? And so we can get caught up in these sort of black and white ways of thinking, and I think that that's a really important quality to be aware of, be a witness to and bring in some invitation to be able to soften that metal quality. We don't want your metal to be so brittle and hard and rather have it be like a more soft way that we can flow with black and white ways of thinking. So I'll just sort of reference a couple of episodes if you're interested in learning more. This is just like a brief overview into like metal and more specifically why I wanted to talk about perfectionism, that if you want to learn more about metal element and like autumn season, I have episode 21 and episode 84 in the archives that you can go check out. But I want to just pause there and see what that brings up for for both not and Lindsay. So I'll just see how that that flows.
Speaker 3:Okay, I think I'm getting the queue to go first. So the first thing that came out for me whenever you were talking about this sort of like sorting that is, it's this black and white, like yes, keep this, know, let go of that, yes, this is for me, know, this isn't for me. And how the metal element has this sort of sense of like, judiciousness and discernment.
Speaker 3:The first thing that came out for me was the freeze response in the nervous system, because that's very much a freeze and so I wonder if, like if we were to apply the five elements to the nervous system, would freeze be the metal state, because the primary emotion of the freeze is judgment. Right, it's judgment. So I don't mean judgment like we're judging other people, like you know she's fat or he's a jerk or whatever. I don't mean judgment like that. I mean judiciousness and discernment for, like, what's for me and what's not for me. And when that's integrated, when we have judgment integrated as an emotion, then we're able to kind of take in that information, filter it out, make a judgment, make a decision that feels an alignment for us.
Speaker 3:But when judgment isn't integrated, what does it lead to? It leads to this collapse or this freeze state where you're like I don't know what to pick because I'm afraid I'm going to make the wrong choice. So I don't decide at all because it might be wrong. And I think that for me anyway, like that is a huge root of perfectionism is I'm so afraid to do anything because, no matter what I do, it's not going to be perfect.
Speaker 3:So it's this unintegrated judgment and, when integrated, that freeze state. Right. What is freeze? Do like there's still mobility and movement and freeze, but there's also this dorsal vagal collapse, so you have gas and breaks at the same time. The wisdom of the body is that when you're faced with an important decision, putting you in more of a collapsed state gives you that chance to slow down and really weigh all of your options and have discernment and make a good decision. But you resist that. Then you go into collapse of like shame, right? So the primary motion of the collapse state of shame so that was the first thing that came up for me was it sounds like this autumn metal element is the nervous system state of freeze and the primary emotion is judgment, and whether that's integrated or not integrated is going to determine how we move through those things and that's the only way that makes sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Do you have anything to add? I have, yeah, I. You have what I want to respond, but I want to make sure that you get time to respond go play.
Speaker 1:I think the yes, I would agree with that. And I think you and I have had, like you know, offline conversations about life. Which element goes with which of these like sort of poor emotions? And I think that judgment is a really, really beautiful layer to bring into this, because if you think about perfectionism and how it shows up, like for me personally, it's less about what decision am I going to make, but it turns into this judgment about myself, you know, like I'm not doing this right, or I'm not good enough, or and again, sort of like, if we think about metal as an element, there's a lot wrapped up with value and our metals are actually like our coins are made out of metal.
Speaker 1:You know, the things that we trade with our often things that we put a lot of value into. And so it becomes the sort of integrated part where I'll just speak for myself, like I start feeling like, oh, I'm not good enough, this work isn't good enough, I'm not value, I'm not valuable enough and and sort of going down those ways of thinking. And I and I love that you brought in this concept of like integrated versus unintegrated, because that discernment when it's integrated is beautiful, because then it becomes boundaries right Versus when it's unintegrated. It turns into this free state that you're talking about when you're talking about judgment, and it's integrated. It's like you know what is going to be a value for you, you know what's going to be a value for your community, versus when it's unintegrated. It turns into that sort of mutated state of like nothing is good enough or maybe an overinflation of value as well, as you know, as an alternative.
Speaker 2:Yeah, interesting. I mean, I can't claim to know anything about metal in the Chinese five elements, but what I'm seeing as y'all are talking is the literal element, like I love how Lindsay brought up elements freeze, because it was thinking I was like, well, in terms of an actual element that goes through with solid and a gaseous state, and in between states that are maybe less understood, water has a fourth state or I don't know. I'm terrible at physics, chemistry yeah right, plasma, like I don't know, but just in that basic terms of thinking of like, okay, gas, liquid, gas, liquid, solid Metal as a solid is very useful and I see that being in this exact moment. I'm just going to make it personal I feel like my own metal is in a very melted state and very liquid state right now, where all of that and I just as if like think about gold you know, melting down gold and alchemy is purifying that and I feel like right now I'm in that state of, oh my, what used to be my guiding metal values, principles or discernment points have kind of like they don't fit anymore and they've melted down the old sword or melted down the old golden compass and I'm putting it into this alchemy is in pot right now.
Speaker 2:It's really interesting to be talking about perfectionism, because it's this, it is this sort, I'm like in it. I'm like in this sorting of what's going to stay and what shape am I going to take when I come back into a solid form, because I'm very much in this. Was she, you know, liquid metal culture and right now, so, yeah. So I'm just thinking about the actual like how do we use metal in our lives and how did they become the things that we use? And the actual like state changes of them in the way that's that's all I have to say this moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I'm curious. You know, when I put this call out, you two volunteered to talk about perfectionism, so I'm curious why this topic felt resonant for for the two of you.
Speaker 2:Was he? Do you have an answer?
Speaker 3:Mostly because I feel like every woman I work with. Perfectionism is a huge thing for them and, for whatever reason, the universe has sent me a lot of people in a free state.
Speaker 3:And so perfectionism is a manifestation of the free state and helping people see that, like you know the grief that's involved with, like the moment that you finally realize, like who am I if I'm not perfect? Right, like that's a big free moment, especially for, I mean, anyone who has been striving for this unattainable goal for their entire lives to finally realize, like I am not and never have been and never will be this, this image that I think I'm supposed to be in my head, like it's, it's totally unrealistic and I'll make myself very sick trying to attain it and I can't. And because I can't, then I collapse and then I feel so much shame and so it comes back to perfectionism. I mean, I work with a lot of people with health anxiety as well, and in working with one particular client, we were talking about perfectionism and other ways of her life, and then she started talking about her health and I quickly realized that she had this standard of perfectionism on her own body and so anytime her body didn't do what she thought it was supposed to do, it was like oh my gosh, what am I doing wrong? I must have eaten something wrong. I must have done something wrong. I shouldn't have taken that dance class because it got my heart rate too high. Like just psychoanalyzing and microanalyzing, like every little decision that she made, because and ultimately, no decision was ever the right decision. Like she really wanted to play pickleball, like she wanted to do a pickleball league and we were working on her deconstructing perfectionism with pleasure and play and like it's cool to just play around with stuff and make mistakes and like not be good at it and just have fun.
Speaker 3:Well, she went to pickleball practice and she sent me a boxer message a couple days later and was like well, I had a really good time at pickleball, it was great, but my heart rate got really high and and that just makes me feel so anxious that my heart rate got so high and it makes me feel like I'm doing the wrong thing and if this was really the right thing for me, I wouldn't be having this symptom. So she's like creating all this story about it and I was just like are you able to hold space for the fact that you were doing like aerobic exercise that requires increased cardiovascular output and that's why your heart rate was increasing and it's not a sign that this thing wasn't for you? I was just like like no, I've never considered that like so.
Speaker 3:I just work with a lot of people that are in this like gas and brakes state of no matter what I do, it's going to be wrong, I can't do the right thing, I don't choose anything at all because I'm too afraid I'm going to mess up and like it's this very frantic urgent energy that goes back and forth between like urgency and collapse and urgency and collapse, and it's exhausting. So that's why I like to talk about perfectionism.
Speaker 2:And I would say I am that person who's lived it and who has melted out of that free state into being able to embody more sympathetic mobilization. And I, you know, I've gone through so many metal layers of that self hyper vigilance of, wow, what is this okay? Of what's happening, what is this what's happening? To the point where it's like, oh, okay, so much of that has been metabolized and melted away and so like that's definitely my lived experience through that recent really resonates because my own Story and my own nervous system pattern was one of grasping for impossible targets, you know, and and having to unravel and unwind that. And it's not like oh, like oh, just all of a sudden.
Speaker 2:Now, you know, it's not like an overnight thing, especially from freeze, that sort of getting deeply multi leveled, interconnected, tangled, but it is possible and I think that that for me, recognizing that energetic pattern of perfectionism when it's showing up, I'm like, oh, that's that old self protection instinct because of this old pattern, and knowing that it's like it's reality check, so oh, okay, what's going on actually. And then it doesn't have to turn like, oh, I'm, I'm aiming for this impossible target or trying to solve something possible or taking responsibility for something that isn't mine, it's impossible to solve, and all these old patterns. That shit sucks Like. Nobody should have to be in that if they want to find, but they shouldn't have to be in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the, the element that's like screaming to be named in this moment, just with both of your shares, not only as you're talking about, like the, the cauldron that you're in right now, this like state of melting down your values and re examining them and like okay, so how does this new version of me, or this like, how do I want to be integrated in a different way?
Speaker 1:And then, lindsay, you talking about your client, you know the, the, the five elements are each controlled by another element and the controller of the metal element is fire.
Speaker 1:And so, again, that state of being able to like, melt it down and be in this place of GUI deconstruction for the sake of you know, giving it new life and and the, the emotions that are associated with fire, is like exactly what you were saying, lindsay, of play, pleasure and I would also add in their love and like, being able to, as we get into these states of like, hyper analyzing and hyper sort of like focusing, like with your client.
Speaker 1:Part of that question that you were asking her is like can you love your body for being in like a human form that is, having a regular response to what is happening around you, instead of thinking that it needs to be this like unattainable machine that is not ever going to like feel some level of discomfort, you know. So, yeah, I think that you know with both of you. You know you say that you're not familiar with the elements and all that, but like you're living so in attunement with nature, and that's really what I love about you know, the people that I surround myself with is like you don't have to call yourself, you know, a Dallas philosopher or or anything like that. It's just we're just looking at nature and being like, hey, nature, like what you got to tell me, you know, and pretty much, yeah, and that's that's something that I really love about the two of you.
Speaker 3:Well, I really like that Natalie brought up this like melty, melty energy. Because, like when I think of myself as a recovering perfectionist whenever I was not in recovery I was a very rigid person like my schedule was rigid, my boundaries were rigid, like everything was rigid, you know, my expectations were rigid of other people, but even more so of myself. Like there was so much rigidity and metal is rigid, right, like it's cool. It is cold and hard. And so if I'm thinking in terms of the nervous system and I'm glad that you brought up the fire element, which is the energy of play and pleasure and love, because something that I tell my my shut down and frozen clients all the time is, like, you know, think about what the polyvagal ladder looks like. You know, you've got safety, combined state of play, sympathetic fight, sympathetic flight, freeze, shut down. That fire energy is closer to safety than metal energy is Absolutely. But I do want to know. My curious question is what is? What is anger as an element?
Speaker 1:We associate that with wood. Okay, yeah, okay, because there's this like it's like what element? And spring season. So there's this energy of like I've got to push through the layers. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah to like get to the surface, and so there's like healthy expressions of anger, obviously, and then there's mutated versions as well.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, yeah, all right. See, I think of anger is like fiery. Like a firecracker when I'm pissed off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I think that I want to dig into this polyvagal ladder piece a little bit because I think it's an important sort of a. I think everybody needs to know the polyvagal ladder. So actually I think you made a post about this maybe a month or two ago, so I'll link that in the in the show notes here so that people can actually visualize it and see what that, what that polyvagal ladder looks like. You know, asking somebody to move from a free state into a play state is a really, really hard transition.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's that hard ask, yeah, that's a really, really hard ask.
Speaker 1:You know, I even see it with like Ruby, like we travel a lot and it always takes her a Day or two to like adjust and then start asking for a play again, because it's like she's in a state of like what the hell is happening, where is my world, what you know? And so, as you're sort of moving from a rigid state to a one melty state that feels more malleable, like you can work with it. What are some sort of suggestions or thoughts or or ways of being that help you in that sort of transition space?
Speaker 3:Are you asking me or not, or both of us? Oh yeah, I just can't see.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, you can't see me. Okay, I'll go. Yeah, I can see all of you. Also, this is Natalie. I realized that on the audio podcast people might not know our voices.
Speaker 2:So, yes, whoo, moving from freeze to play it's something, I think, because I'm also very playful and I Think there's a comment I want to make, kind of in general, about perfectionism and these rigid boundaries and the hypervigilance and all of that is, I think, in our modern society can be easy to be like well, I have to clear that or get away from it or make it stop.
Speaker 2:But really these are all in service of your body trying to protect you, or one's body trying to protect oneself, and so it's the body's best assessment of how to help one survive. And so much of what makes it difficult to move from freeze to play is that the body's like like play is something that inherently happens. When one has a foot in safety, one has connection to safety because Outside of that, when one is in that threat and stay in a threat response, the whole being is going to be focused on Protecting that survival, and so moving from that into safety is a pathway to play, and play can be both a way to facilitate that movement and it can also be an outcome of that movement and In my own experience and an experience of people I've worked with um, directly Engaging with that aspect that feels threatened so that it can have its needs met, helps resolve its rigid stance and become more fluid and melty, and Play can naturally emerge from that reconnection with safety, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and to piggyback off of that, I too find it very difficult for, or an impossible ask, to just tell a client who's in a state of freeze like, okay, your homework this week is to go find five ways to play, because they're they're like, literally will look at you and be like, but I don't know what to do. Like I don't even know what that means. And so I don't ask that of them, because I am aware that In my own nervous system when I get asked to do something that feels overwhelming because I don't know how to do it, that's more likely to keep me stuck in that rigid place and not even try, because then I'm like well, then I won't even play perfectly, like I can't even do that right. So yes to everything Natalie said. And then also I have found that sometimes the play may feel like it's a little bit out of reach.
Speaker 3:But Pleasure slow, safe pleasure is like a little bit of a gateway into that. So, depending on the client's level of freeze, like I might have them. Like just rub lotion on your body and like feel how good it feels. Or Like just take an extra five minutes in the shower and feel how good the water feels just Going over your body, like really intentionally be with that sensation, and it may not feel like pleasure at first, but can you practice it enough that it begins to be something that you feel safe with, or that it begins to be something that you feel, like you enjoy because it feels good. So, like, can we start there? Can we start with like really simple, like you don't have to go anywhere. You can literally do this in the privacy of your own home. You can close the door, you can keep people out, like, but what can you do that feels like pleasure in your own body, and I always like to emphasize Like.
Speaker 3:Sexual pleasure is fine, but I want you to try non-sexual pleasure, like what are some ways that you can feel non-sexual pleasure? Because for people that have sexual trauma, they don't want to feel sexual pleasure sometimes. So it's like, you know, going for really slow walks she's just intentionally smell flowers, rubbing lotion on your body in a way that feels good, going and getting a massage, if that feels safe to you, but just like dipping your toe in the water of what can I do? That just feels good, like it doesn't have to feel like play, it doesn't have to feel like joy, but it feels like something I'm likely to return to and can find enjoyment and pleasure in it, and so sometimes I use that as the gateway and then eventually we get to like, oh yeah, I wanted to go play pickleball and it was so much fun, and like all this and like they naturally get there on their own Right, but sometimes pleasure is our, is our entrance and that makes sense yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, I think the pieces that I want to highlight about about that is Like, oftentimes, when we're in a perfectionistic state, we, a Nervous system goes from the hyper vigilance as we've talked about, but also like a lot of energy ends up in the head, and so then you start thinking and overthinking and ruminating and in what you're asking is, can you come back in your body?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and from that body state you can start like kind of looking around and assessing. Actually, as you're saying this, I'm like realizing that this is what like Ruby and I do, is like when we're traveling and she's like Hyper vigilant, I like, well, instead of asking her to play, which wouldn't really work, like I'll just sit and pet her and get her back in her body, and that helps just like reduce that threat response, because then your body is like, oh, I can look around and see that, you know, maybe some of the threats that I was, I was experiencing are are my more perceived threats than actual threats, and and can start sort of contextualizing it on that level, and so I think that that's a really important piece. Is that like bring your body into this right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah and and, like you know, do an, like, an embodiment exercise of like, okay, if I'm feeling like I have to be perfect right now, where do I feel that in my body? And if that had a movement, what would it be Like really just being being the feeling of perfectionism for a minute, right?
Speaker 3:Like letting it be there, because it's there. It's just so many people are not conscious of it being there, or, when they're conscious of it being there, they don't know what to do with it. Yeah, and and I think that in this very like wounded masculine way, there's a lot of like, I need to do something about this. Right, I need to do something about it. I mean, oh, I'm a perfectionist, I need to fix it, I need to figure out how to heal from that, and it's like this, very like doing energy, whereas what I'm asking people to do is to actually not really do anything except for feel like. I'm literally just asking you to feel, and the resistance is so strong, like it's so strong. Yeah, and yeah, we have to practice that first, and and also practice like now I'm asking you to feel this safe touch or this pleasure, or like so it's.
Speaker 3:It is bringing the body in at every single level and feeling the unsafe feeling, but also feeling the safe feeling to begin to rewire the brain, to be like oh, that's what safe feels, like that's what good, feel like like because those neural pathways are so hardwired to go down the pain circuit and like the perfectionist circuit, the free circuit, and so it's like a slow rewiring and my experience I'm curious if y'all's it's different but my experience is that freeze and shut down are the hardest states to work with.
Speaker 3:But freeze in particular is the hardest state to work with because a person in the state of freeze, you know, is one foot in collapse and one foot in activation and it's like that state is so unbearable that they would rather be Collapsed than being that in between state, or they would rather be in a full-on sympathetic state than being that in between state.
Speaker 3:So for people listening who are dealing with that, like the struggle is real and All three of us have clearly worked with people Are dealing with that and it really is. Sometimes it's in the beginning Especially. It feels like walking a tightrope because it can be so easy to blow people out of their window of tolerance when they're in shut down and freeze. So it's a lot of two steps forward, one step back, and for perfectionists and recovery, that one step back. Sometimes they attach a story to it and they're like, oh, I'm not getting better. See, this doesn't work for me, like because they have that one step back and it's not just a straight linear up, you know progress, because they don't get to like show their report card that they got straight A's on their healing journey.
Speaker 1:You know what.
Speaker 1:I mean yeah yeah, and I think that that like that space of like, one step in sympathetic and month, you know, one step immobilization and one step in like or so people shut down is really the energy of like autumn, because it's it's like we're one foot still in like young summer energy and one foot in like winter energy, and so there's that like delicate tightrope that we're talking about. And I Know that for me when I'm, when I'm working with people in this space, it's so easy, like you were saying, for them to To get pushed other window of times and then sort of go back into that dorsal, vagal shutdown which feels safer in a certain way. And I think an important part of that work is actually asking that perfectionistic part of you like you know how, how are you protecting me? Because I know that for myself and a lot of my own sort of like perfectionistic tendencies is like it's all rooted in how I found safety in my family of origin and so like, instead of I think Natalie, you touched on this earlier Like, as we're doing this work, it's it's so important to not like identify these parts as like parts that you want to like exercise out of you and like you get rid of, and more of a like compassionate sort of of Looking towards and and asking, hey, like, how have you actually served me in the past?
Speaker 1:And I want to honor that and I want to bear witness to it and also let me know, like you don't have to do that To find safety in the environment, in the people that you're with right now, and so, yeah, I want to just know us there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think adding to this and this is this, this right here, like is the challenge of perfectionism. In one way, I think it's gosh right and like I really like to explicitly say that. So much for my own experience and what I see in others around. Perfectionism is reframing the expectations of how the result or the outcome or how far one might get or what the experience will be, and Bringing it back down to like, okay, well, what's a micro step? And bringing it closer to home, because I think that a lot of I see people very simply even have very poor project management, not because they're Anything wrong with them, but because it's just not taught and that it makes it very hard to orient oneself towards. Well, what is one actually aiming for and how, what are the steps to actually create that? And Instead of having this nice broken down Potential roadmap that's not gonna be perfect but at least is like Orienting and grounding and guiding people are looking to go from I'm here and I want to go there, I'm gonna just take one big leap and then, when that leap doesn't work and they actually Fall and end up falling down a cliff and they're now further behind, they're like fuck, this sucks, and so there's very practical, tangible approaches to perfectionism as well, where to to Supporting this tendency, like project management and finding a project management system that works for someone can be a huge game changer, even if it's challenging. It's going to be challenging. I mean, I just want to name it's going to be challenging and each little steps probably gonna feel excruciatingly small and that's the challenge. That's, you know, not judging that as wrong or bad, it was the challenge.
Speaker 2:And being able to Navigate and then also pivot and come back and use that metal energy to discern Okay, along the journey, am I still oriented towards that place I would like to go, or do I need to shift my orientation? Or do I need to reorient or do I need to shift my goal? And being fluid enough yet discerning enough along the way and breaking it down. And you think of metal and you think of a knife and like knives are so useful to cutting up food I don't want to eat a whole Steak in one bite. I mean I could use my teeth. At my teeth I guess they're kind of like you know, coming, you know we have amazing teeth right, but Metal is very helpful for being able to cut things into pieces that we can then, deal with and I think that's really useful in Context of perfectionism as well and also someone struggling with this, I highly recommend that you Get evaluated for ADHD.
Speaker 3:I second that. Um, yeah, I. I just want to echo what nat said, because I was waiting for her to say the word discernment or like, judiciousness of like. How can I take this big thing and and Judiciously discern what my order of steps is going to be, so that I can take it a bite at a time and not the whole thing in one bite? Um and Like. For, for people who are in that Unintegrated judgment state, they want to take that whole bite and then, whenever they don't succeed, air quotes. When they don't succeed, then they they judge like, well, I did it imperfectly and now I'm back at square one, or I'm even further behind than what I was before, as she said. Um, but it's bringing up a little bit for me and I'm curious, cat, how this fits into the five elements of like.
Speaker 3:Um, the primary emotion of the flight state is perseverance, and unintegrated perseverance is like it's like ungrounded productivity, you know, it's like I'm a human being and I'm a human doing and not a human being, like I am going to just stick with something and I don't know when, to just like cut it loose or or walk away or whatever.
Speaker 3:So you're unable to persevere without also feeling the anxiety, the overthinking, the catastrophization. It's like I have to keep going but my gas tank is running on empty. Um, whereas when perseverance is integrated, when that flight energy is integrated, then you can stick with something and see it through all the way to the end. Well, you can't do that unless you first integrated your judgment right Of being able to break something down into manageable, bite, bite size steps. So, um and again, that perseverance or flight energy is still closer to safety than freeze and judgment. It's, it's a mobilizing energy, right. It's just when it's not integrated, there's anxiety and and overthinking and OCD, like that's an unintegrated. Perseverance is like OCD, like you have the ability to stick with something, but not without a lot of distress, right?
Speaker 2:I keep seeing the picture of someone hammering a nail and like the, the nails already hammered in and they just keep hammering it. Or the nails, the bed, and they're like I'm gonna make this bed nail work.
Speaker 3:I gotta make it work.
Speaker 2:I'm like yeah.
Speaker 3:Yep, yeah, it's an unintegrated perseverance, right. And when perseverance is integrated like, you know when to keep pushing through and you know when to stop, or you know when to rest and take a break. So where does that fall into the elements? Cat?
Speaker 1:Well, as you were talking about it, again, that feels like wood energy, right. Because, like wood, energy is all about growth, it's all about action, it's all about doing, and so what you're talking about with perseverance is the act of doing without it, without grounding, right? And it's so interesting because, like again, elemental theory is just like a universal sort of way of just talking about energy, and the controlling element for wood is metal, and that's exactly what you're picking up on is actually what would help. That unintegrated wood energy is a bit of pruning, so that it doesn't grow out of control, in, out of Out of alignment, right. And so, like bringing in a bit of that, that metal energy of being able to to, to break things down into small enough chunks so that then you can sort of see it from what it is.
Speaker 1:Um, I think, as you two are talking, I was like, oh my god, I think that they're talking about the story of my life, which is, like you know, I was that, I, I, you know I feel way more grounded about this now, but I was that person who would just like do the thing and like I, I'm, I can eat an entire steak in one mouthful is is the analogy here and Like it's hard when it's when you can, when you're actually built to be able to do that, because then you get a ton of validation for it. Yes, yeah, and I remember when I Used to play on a roller derby team and I sat on the board of directors and when I left my position on the board of directors they had to bring three people to do the job that I was doing as like one person and so, and so, like it's it, it becomes confusing, because there are some of us who are built to actually be able to do that.
Speaker 1:I don't think I'm sitting with Natalie, who's a Reflector, and Lindsay, who's a projector, in both of you.
Speaker 3:You're only the second reflector I've ever met in my life. My brother is a reflector.
Speaker 2:She's on our special unicorn for me. More rainbow unicorn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so like I, you know, I'm coming in here with my manager and energy and I'm just like well, what do you mean? You can't eat the entire steak in one bite, like Like some of us are designed to be able to do that and and that's not the healthiest thing for me, obviously um, and so, yeah, that all makes sense and aligns, and.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can imagine eating an entire steak would be really, really rough on your digestion if you just again.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm thinking. I'm like no fun.
Speaker 3:That feels like bloating and Diarrhea or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was not a fun experience.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm really glad.
Speaker 2:I'm curious, cat, if you're willing to share about your own journey. Have you Shifted the way that you eat steak metaphorically here from one big bite to cutting it into pieces, or Do you still eat like what? What's changed since you were the roller derby person playing you know three jobs?
Speaker 1:Yeah, in one, I think, um, that discernment piece that you guys have already like Done such a good job of fleshing out, but also this, the One of the like underlying patterns that I see With a lot of folks that I work with who struggle with perfectionism is the like I can do this all by myself.
Speaker 3:The hyper independence yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, so that was me in my 20s and and I my growth edge now is asking for help. So that's been a huge part of of the. The journey to not eat the entire steak is like I can share the steak with people. Now Andre here produces this podcast. Like I'm so grateful to have him on my business team, but also just he's my bestie as well and you know, I think that having people who can sort of carry that with you is an important part of um, working with perfectionism and and yeah, and rewiring some of those patterns, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm curious too, if you're willing, like, was there a moment or any particular? I mean, I'm sure there were many moments, but is there anyone coming to mind where you were like, oh, maybe something needs to change? Where, if you became aware of the perfectionism in a way that you were like, uh, what else can I, how else can I do? Is there? Is there that that comes to mind? And if not, that's cool. I'm just curious.
Speaker 1:No, like I'm I'm happy to share. It's just I hadn't put it together. So like this is interesting, um, but yeah, that my, my divorce from my ex-husband um, like there's a before the divorce version of me and then there's like an after divorce version of me, and I think about all the pressure that he had put on me in terms of our relationship and me just taking it and just thinking that was the norm. And there was this veneer in our relationship where it looked really perfect on the outside. You know, it was the like classic met in college and got married and had the house and we both had good jobs, like everything on the outside looked perfect.
Speaker 1:So, like even my closest friends at the time because I kept a lot of the struggles that my husband and I had had away from peering eyes Even my closest friends were really surprised when we got divorced, and so I think that that was kind of the turning edge where I had to ask for support. I had no choice because I didn't have resources, you know, like I had to leave the house. I ended up living with one of my close friends for about a month before I was able to like get myself back on my feet, I slept out of my car a lot, and so, like it was, that I feel like is the turning point where I don't know that I would have started looking for help outside of myself had I not reached rock bottom. And so I think that that's, you know, for those of us who go into that hyperindependent state, if we can bring in some of that like elemental wisdom again, the one of the other qualities of fire is like connection and being able to relate with each other.
Speaker 2:And actually can I pause you there and reflect something. Okay, yeah, because I'm seeing like an indicator.
Speaker 2:I'm seeing a potential indicator of perfectionism is if one is noticing that what one is projecting outwards is incongruent with what one is experiencing. Oh, absolutely, and that is a potential, like these indicators, because it's not always easy to know. Am I caught in a perfectionism loop, like so that you know, looking at examining that and even like journal about see how do people perceive me and how is that not actually True? Yeah, I want to be perceived. Yeah, absolutely, which gets kind of yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It gets really tricky when it comes to, like folks who are in my community, which is like spiritual entrepreneurs, like how much of yourself do you show to the outside world?
Speaker 2:and you know I struggle with it because I talk to you yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we all struggle with it, you know, and I think that ultimately the medicine is all kind of wrapped up in this fire element. Because, you know, when I struggle with that, that question of like, hey, like, am I showing up in alignment with, like exactly what you're saying, of like the outside doesn't necessarily feel like what I'm like, what I'm feeling on the inside, and or vice versa, and like I reach out to my people now, and luckily I have the two of you to reach out to, and and talk through it and and then, and then the wisdom of metal can come through with the discernment of like. Okay, how do I want to proceed forward? Like that judgment, piece of like, how do I want to express myself in a way that values my story but also honors that I need privacy and safety that I get from my inner circle. You know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So when you guys were talking, like I was about, like the image I'm presenting to the outside world versus how I feel on the inside being incongruent. I still feel that perfectionism is like the marriage or the love child of, like unintegrated perseverance and unintegrated shame. Because, like on the outside, it takes so much energy and work to keep going right, like it takes a lot of perseverance to keep that facade of perfectionism up. But that's because what's on the inside is this unintegrated shame. And so what Natalie saying, I think, and what you're saying to cat, is like perfectly you know, like it matches up with the nervous system state, it matches up with the emotional state, it matches up with the element elemental state. Like that unintegrated perseverance and unintegrated shame come together and they have a baby named perfectionism.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, I love that.
Speaker 2:Right and I think even in this like to get a little better was like if one is sitting there thinking about, oh my God, like I touched on this and like, oh, my inside and my outside are not congruent, and that's where there is no perfection of that inside outside expression. It is this ever changing spectrum of sharing and connection. So I really like how you presented that and, dang Lindsay, I love that. Thanks, well, well, baby perfectionism.
Speaker 3:Daddy person variance and mama shame.
Speaker 2:The family, yeah, on the outside Right on the outside.
Speaker 3:And then it also makes me think like, okay, so is there such a thing as, like integrated perfectionism? And for me the first word that comes up when I asked myself that is like I think integrated perfectionism looks like like having a spirit of excellence.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's what I was going to say was gonna be like excellence, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, because if one is very like, if you can excel, if you have a gift and you're really fucking good at it, or even not that good at it, but you can offer something like what everyone has their own excellent edge, right, yeah, this is interesting. Can we explore this idea of excellence? Yeah, let's cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like when I bet our listeners are also like okay, what's the line? Like when does perfectionism crossover into excellence and when is excellence crossover into perfectionism? Like what does that feel like for you guys?
Speaker 2:It's an ever it's. It's not static, it's an ever like. That's part of the journey going for me at least. I don't know if I'll ever be free from perfectionism. I think that I'll find myself in those whirlpools again and again and it's for me knowing how to recognize when I'm there, so that I don't just get sucked in the undertow. Or I'm thinking of this crazy lake where there's this like drainage hole and everything just goes down.
Speaker 2:I saw it on Tik Tok and it's like terrifying looking at it. Like you know I don't remember what it's called, but it was so crazy looking. But like seeing these whirlpools that are, you know, you get sucked in and you don't come out Like okay, if I can start to recognize what I'm rotating around that and instead of trying to frantically swim away or trying to go into it, just recognizing I'm there and then like state changing, I don't know. You know, matt, it's okay, what's next? Just holding space for that. It helps me move through the waves of it.
Speaker 2:It really is such a wave and the waves aren't even always equal sizes or intensity. It's recognizing that there is no clear line that one can like you can't be perfect about never being a perfectionist. Right, like that can easily happen if one, especially if one's very philosophical and goes in these, you know, can validate anything and starts to find the perfect validation for the perfectionism in the line and walk the line and like that's all indicators of trauma and not trying to upset the angry bear that's gonna, you know, like you know, somehow make you wrong and then you have to solve this impossible task of not making this other person wrong or bad. I mean, that's only one scenario, but like to put it into a little bit more of a story term here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think for me, excellence, like when I feel like I'm in like a spirit of excellence, it feels like flow and it feels like kind of not not easy, like maybe not simple, but useful, and then perfectionism has this like sticky self, deprecating my inner dialogue with myself is not very kind, like you know, my inner critic is like really really beating me up. The voice in my head is really beating me up. So does that describe how the difference of the feeling is for you guys?
Speaker 1:I think for me there's, as you were talking about excellence, the words that came to mind were like value in virtue and like wanting to be a virtuous person, and then with that can come this like sticky edge of like well, I'm doing things better than that other person, and so then you create this like hierarchy, right, which is not actually truly virtuous, and so there's yeah, absolutely, and to me all this stuff always comes back to the body and I feel like when I am being somebody who's rooted in excellence and in virtues, like there's a flow that comes forth and and it feels like just lighter in my body versus like when I'm going into the realm of like perfectionism and that's a sneaky fucking edge, you know it just feels really different in my body.
Speaker 1:I'm having trouble like naming and placing in this moment, but certainly like a bit of like, maybe like clenching of my teeth and like shoulders, like that's kind of what I'm thinking about when I'm like thinking through some of the like people that I sometimes compare myself to on the internet and like maybe some of the things that come up as I read some other stuff, and I'm like, but I want to say something different and you know they're saying it wrong and and to me that's that's, that's the feeling. So I know I invite people to bring it into their bodies as as a sort of inquiry point.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for me perfectionism feels like a like it's almost like an egg and it's like the bottom of the egg is like my pelvic floor clenches up, like I'm just like really tight in my pelvic floor, and then the top of the egg is like this pressure of like overthinking and being really critical of myself in my head, and so it's like I'm being like like this and the words don't flow, the thoughts don't flow. I get frustrated really easily. I'm more likely to just like if I'm working on something, I'm more likely to just be like oh, fuck it, I'll come back to it next week or tomorrow or whatever, and like like I don't want to purse their beer with it because I'm so frustrated by it. And then sometimes I even go into like a victim of like God, why does this always happen to me? Or like, oh, just when I have an afternoon that I can actually work on this, there's no creativity.
Speaker 2:you know like I get into these like stories sometimes and yeah, it's like clenching in the pelvis and then the thoughts just being like Right, and then those thoughts then reinforce the body, and then the body reinforces the thoughts, and then that's, that whirlpool is just like right, and I think for me, I'm back and forth and I'm like what do I do?
Speaker 3:I'm just saying, yeah, I reinforce it. And then I'm just I'm still in that back and forth of like I can't make, I don't have any discernment, I don't have any judiciousness, I can't make a decision, like I'm just stuck in this, like never ending circling the drain but not ever going down the drain.
Speaker 2:Right and I'm hearing indecision is another potential indicator of perfectionism. Indecision and, yeah, like unable to choose, I think a lot of. For me, what's the difference between being in a state of perfectionism versus excellence is feeling like something's at stake. If something's at stake and I have to like avoid losing that or activating something, that's perfectionism versus excellence, I'm open to the consequences. I got it. I'm like I'm doing this to the, I'm showing up and doing this to the very best of my present ability and I'm in the experience and it's not concerning to me what the consequence is going to be, because I got it, like I'm in my, I'm just here and it's existing and emerging it through me.
Speaker 2:So that's that, and I think that ties into indecision, because I know for me a lot of times, indecision is trying to find the choice where something very threatening won't you know where something the stakes won't be so threatening, but every stake in every decision option is to threatening, and then that's often an indicator of unprocessed trauma, like, oh, there's no answer, no way out. That goes right back to that freeze shut down indicators. You know that's that's a sign of is there actually? There might actually be a possibility or something that a choice one can make that they can handle the consequences, or it's not such high stakes. But they can't see that the time and that's really fucking hard.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I feel like the other thing I really want people to know is, I think, especially for entrepreneurs is I personally feel like it's extremely normal for me to like, over the course of a creative experience where I'm birthing something from start to finish, like I don't ever have like a fully spirit of excellence experience without coming in, and I also don't have a fully perfectionistic experience without the X, like it ebbs and flows between integrated and unintegrated, and I want people to know that that is really, really normal and it doesn't mean that you're doing something wrong or that you regressed or you haven't healed enough or you're not ready or qualified or whatever. I just felt like I had to throw that out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely, natalie. I want to circle back to something that you were saying, because I think that loss is an important thing to name here in terms of its relationship to perfectionism. Because, you know, I think that the reason why so many of these patterns go back to a much younger version of you that might need support and might need some help in textualizing your current life now is, you know, if I think about the perfectionism sort of traits that I developed when I was young, it's because those were the things that made me feel loved, made me feel like I belonged in my family and made me feel like I was going to be accepted, that I was going to, like you know, be an integrated human in my family of origin, and had I not been perfect at seven or eight, that would have been a much harder loss than if I think about losing my family now. As, like somebody in my mid 30s, right like my, my basis for survival is not attached to my parents seeing me as perfect and therefore accepting me and me finding belonging, and so I think it's important to sort of like, like, recognize that that sometimes those younger parts need like help, sort of reworking that story. And you're totally right.
Speaker 1:You might at some point have to accept that you may lose something, whether it's a relationship or you know something, and identity, yeah, absolutely parts of you.
Speaker 1:Like there's going to be grief that comes up in this and for me, like I only shared like the good parts of myself with my parents for the first like 30 years of my life and, you know, found that that was how I found safety in in that relationship.
Speaker 1:And you know, as I've sort of untangled these perfectionistic parts, I'm showing up much more authentically with my parents, sharing parts that I never thought that I would be able to share with them, and a lot of that has to do with the work that they've also done on their parts to accept the like less perfect versions of me as being a part of me. And so, like I think that part of this conversation is just loss and and also, as you develop the capacity to be with the less perfect parts of you, you also develop the capacity to be with the less perfect parts of other people. And now that I'm hearing this out loud, I want to sort of like change that from less perfect to just human. You know, like you can be with the more human parts of yourself and others as you work to integrate this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't help but hear in what you're saying. The perfectionist expert, these impossible expectations placed upon people in the supremacist society that only sees humans and the earth as things to extract profit from, and the, you know, especially people facing marginalization. It's very, very connected to survival, to, to potentially to have to move towards this perfect, impossible image, even though it's unattainable, and it only brings you know, it brings one's best attempt at survival or best potential for survival within a fucking broken system. And that is real, real Like the. The pressures that are put on us in the kind of external constraints that are beyond our control, can easily feed that perfectionist tendency for that purpose of survival as well. And, yeah, I think it just as you were sharing that, just had to just name that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I mean coming from an immigrant family, like that resonates so deeply because, like, my parents were so afraid to go out in the world and speak English because their English wasn't perfect.
Speaker 1:You know they were afraid of being seen as being less than or stupid, because we didn't fit this like standard of American idealism. And you know, you know, looking back, that's a lot of the stuff that we've, both myself and my parents, have had to integrate and they found that they couldn't integrate it living in the states and they're back in Korea and so like there's there's something about, you know, this culture that we all live in, where we're driven to be perfect in order to be validated, in order to like, like and a lot of us are. That's how we literally make our paychecks is through perfectionism. So, like I have so much compassion for, for folks who are still in that cycle and you know, as, as we've been talking, like the invitation to bring in these like digestible, you know, little doses of play and pleasure and just many movements. Like it all adds up, like I think it's hard to think about it all adding up, but it all adds up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it slowly moves the needle over time. Yeah, I think, also to speak to what both of you were saying regarding, like immigrants, for example, marginalized communities, for example, in an even larger context, for me I I'm not sure that we can have a conversation without perfectionism, without talking about, like each of our, like internalized capitalism and how like and along with internalized capitalism, is also this internalized comparison.
Speaker 3:I recently shared, on a group call of mine, like something that I noticed myself doing, and I've done it my whole life, but I didn't really even notice it until just this year. Thank you, awareness. Once I like noticed it and got curious about it, I was kind of like oh icky, that I do that. And what it is is. It's a comparison thing where if I walk into a social event, a group, like a dinner, like whatever it is, I instantly like my comparison turns on and I instantly start trying to size up, like okay, among all of these women, like where do I fit, where do I line up? And like it feels so gross to me, like that I've been doing that subconsciously for 40 years and that is no one's natural state, right, like that is nobody's natural state to like walk into a room and start sizing everybody up to see where you compare.
Speaker 3:Who am I better than who? Am I less than who? Am I fatter than who? Am I skinnier than who? Am I prettier than who? Am I uglier than like? And and I know this is the the case for men too, but I don't have a man's experience, I only have a woman's experience and so like it's, it's the internalized capitalism that tells me like you have to compare yourself to other people and you you have. In order for you to be good enough, you have to compare as better than everyone else. And it's just this very like sticky, like I feel gross, like talking about it.
Speaker 2:It's just like domination energy rather than resonance and connection. Very yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think there's so much perfectionism is rooted in. That is like I have to be better than everybody else, and the only way I can be better than everybody else is to literally be perfect.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Which is impossible, yeah, so then I have to put the facade on like I am perfect. So all of my social media followers think I'm perfect, but really I have so much shame about what I'm hiding, which goes back to what we were talking about earlier with the this alignment. But yeah, I just, I just needed to like speak to my own, like internalized capitalism and internal, I mean for women, I guess to it's internalized patriarchy and just just this sense of comparison and like always feeling like I have to measure up better than everybody else or I'm not worth anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Can I use this as a way to segue into, because I think it's just a beautiful way that we just sort of dove into that, Talking about perfectionism and social media and yeah, fuck. Yes, you know, I think that this is one of the common things that I hear from my clients is like I don't know how much to share I there's like a lot of shame that might come up. I don't know how much I want to be seen. There's a sense of comparison, like you were saying. You know, imagine walking into a party. You know comparing yourself to everybody in that party, but then also like social media is a big fucking like party.
Speaker 1:It's a big party, right, and and there's like an infinite number of people to compare yourself to, and so I see the two of you as being really solidly rooted in how you show up online, and so I'm curious, like, how you have that discernment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we, you just cut out. I couldn't hear you said I see the two of you.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, so I see the two of you as as being really rooted in how you show up online. Thank you. I, when I am on your pages, I know that things are being shared with intention. Sometimes, like like actually, Lindsay and I like sometimes I've read some of your stuff and like felt this like, hmm, a slight dysregulation, and then I have to like talk to you about it. You know, but it's never done out of like a place where, like, you're trying to be better than or trying to like create a hierarchy although I can see how sometimes people read into it in that way. But I'm curious how the two of you have the discernment when you're choosing what to post online and what not to post online to your communities, to your audiences.
Speaker 3:Let me go first Nat.
Speaker 2:See what my eyes get big. I feel like that's part of the mushy, melted metal stage I'm in because I'm shedding a layer of how I've been showing up in the world that is no longer congruent with my capacity or the colors, resonance and spectrum and intensity of whatever I am as I'm becoming, and that's something I'm kind of evaluating now in terms of the way I'm even in relationship with people that I serve and how am I serving them and what role am I playing and what agreements am I asking of them when they step into a relationship with me. And I don't rely on social media as a marketing avenue and so for me the discernment is do I feel like it or not? It's not something that I specifically do not rely on. Social media because I have my own personal cycles of energy and need for restoration are just not conducive to showing.
Speaker 2:I'm 11 page Natalie. I cannot fit what I want to say into 22 fucking characters Right. I spend, you know, I can spend an hour writing something and then two hours cutting it down for Instagram. I just don't give a fuck and Instagram always glitches for me. So I'm just like fuck Instagram in a way that I just don't have the capacity to deal with it and it can't, doesn't have the space to hold me the way I want to be held. So I just have said oh, instagram is there for me to express when the moment strikes, and there's no pressure and it's just fun for me and I have no attachment or expectation to how it's going to unfold, and so a lot of it is just maybe in silly me, like talking about my relationship with crows or just I don't know. It's, it's very duck rescue.
Speaker 2:Duck rescue Awesome. I love that.
Speaker 3:Duck rescue.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah Just like yeah, the duck rescue, I was like I love the duck rescue.
Speaker 2:And now from that, oh my God, I have a new relationship with my neighbor across the street who just brought me this gorgeous lily that's blooming from his garden. And, just like I just so prefer to be in connection with people, either face to face, on the computer or in real life, and to such an extent that that's a big part of what I'm evaluating in my current melting pot, I'm like what do I even want to do? And I'm I know this is like a lot more than just social media, but I think this goes to the extent that I could consider it and my relationship with it and the role it plays in the boundaries I have with it, because I see so many people get caught up in that perfectionist tendency and in having these expectations that are just way out of alignment with what Instagram can predictably provide, and it ends up becoming this toxic relationship rather than one of creative expression and connection. So, yeah, I mean I can go on a whole rabbit hole there. Well, pause there Before Can.
Speaker 3:I use the bathroom. Yeah, I need to be really bad, sweet. I'll have to edit that out. I'm sorry, andre.
Speaker 1:I think I need to pee too, actually.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'll go get some more water.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see you, andre. Hello, how are you we? Use that as an excuse to take a pee break too.
Speaker 3:Perfect. Yeah, we've been going for an hour and a half. I feel like it's reasonable to need to pee after that, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I go into this mode when I'm like podcasting and with clients, where, like, I forget that I have a bladder, and then, like when somebody remembers that I have a bladder, like I'm like, oh yeah, I could go pee.
Speaker 3:I have a bladder, yeah, yeah, my bladder. Doesn't let me forget that I have a bladder at all.
Speaker 1:What do you have for the rest of the day?
Speaker 3:This is it. This is it. I'm going to rest big time today. Nice, I didn't sleep good last night. I'm exhausted from two days of photography. I'm going to take it easy and chill yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't wait to see the rest of your photos.
Speaker 3:I know same. She hasn't even edited them yet, but she's like editing some on her phone just to give me like something.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh.
Speaker 3:And I'm just so like impressed, yeah, with it all. Just like so impressed. She's great. I've already told her I'm going to have her back and when I do a retreat, she's going to be my retreat photographer. Nice, yeah, she has awesome work.
Speaker 1:Sweet, we're all back.
Speaker 2:Wait, a second Hold on. I couldn't hear you. Now I can hear you. Hello, good, can you hear me? Yeah, okay, cool, good.
Speaker 1:Um so Nat can I like? Just interjecting just other things. No, dude. Oh my God, I just have been able to shed the layers of giving a fuck Like today. I'm showing up my hair. I am not.
Speaker 2:I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. Like, today I'm showing up my hair, I am not having a great hair day, I am broken out, I am tired, I, I am just like whatever.
Speaker 3:But I don't give a fuck Cause if this is me, if people don't like me in this state, then they don't get me in the other states, so they can fucking write they are not welcome in my life. Right Preach, take up an offering.
Speaker 2:I will show the cash. So it's just. You know the comparison sucks and I've.
Speaker 2:A huge part of my comparison is rooted in this deep insecurity because of freeze and shutdown and how much of my life I've spent in shutdown and I don't have the capacity of a generator in human design. I don't have the capacity of someone who didn't experience complex trauma and who grew up with well regulated, with their needs met. I just don't have that capacity. I have chronic illness, I have chronic pain, I have mental health issues, I take medicine for all kinds of stuff. I'm like over here trying to freaking, just do my best within my capacity and and accept that that's where I'm at in life. You know that's like. The comparison is strong because I have such an amazing intellect and creative power and my physical capacity to actually do things is like this much compared to what I see other people being able to do, and that is extremely frustrating and debilitating. It gets me back into those loops. This is a constant thing that touches into my life, just with less and less intensity as I progress on my trauma healing journey and integration.
Speaker 1:And what I love about that is I'm hearing not just like a deeper acceptance of yourself, but also almost like a Teflon of like you guys. Nobody else gets to come in here and project their perfectionistic ideas onto me either, you know.
Speaker 2:I'm very inconvenient for that matter, so one was to try to project that onto me. It is not convenient for them Same.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So let's see, I want to hear from you too, like relationship with social media. How do you work with any of the things that we've talked about so far?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I unfortunately do use Instagram to market my business. I get 90% of my money from people who find me on Instagram. I am always seeking ways. I'm always telling the universe like please, if there's something else, can you please show me what it is? Because I don't like this. I'm in favor with the algorithm right now, so it's good. But when I fall out of favor with the algorithm and like, the fact that this algorithm has this power over my income capability is just fucking shit to me. Whole nother conversation.
Speaker 3:But how do I navigate social media? And okay, so I'm really, really intentional about my feed, specifically who I follow. So I have over 42,000 followers at this point as of this podcast and I only follow like 45 people. So it's like a microscopic amount of people that I follow compared to the people that are following me, and that's very, very intentional on my part, and a lot of it is honestly because I did find myself in comparison and it was like, well, if I don't follow these people anymore, then there's nothing to compare myself to and I'll spend less time on this fucking app because I'm not following as many people. So I can literally make it through my entire feed in like two minutes, you know, like because it's there's nothing there, like I see you guys as post over and over and over because there's nothing there, there's nothing else to look at. So it saved the amount of time that I spend on social media and, honestly, the less time I spend on social media, the less in a state of comparison and perfectionism I am whenever I'm on social media. So time intentionality, I feel, is very important.
Speaker 3:Who you follow, like curating a feed that actually brings you joy and happiness and is actually helpful, and not something that every time you open it up you're just looking at somebody else's life that you perceive as perfect and business that you perceive as successful and you don't know what it looks like when that camera is off. You don't know what their books look like, you don't know what their sales look like. But if you follow people that are putting out this image, then of course that makes you think, oh well, what am I doing wrong? Again, it's that comparison right? So then don't just fucking don't follow the people and then you won't compare Like it's really not hard.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean. It's not hard and I've always said that if, like this, business doesn't work out, I have an Instagram account for my dog and I'm just going to pivot to dog Instagram because I feel like that's where it's at. But my second piece of this is is an integrity piece, and my integrity is so important to me. Being an integrity is how I sleep at night. It's how I, like, feel good about what I'm doing and I feel peaceful about what I'm doing. And when I'm out of integrity, my body lets me know that I'm in freaking nanoseconds with, like, anxiety or shame or something like that, and so it is outside of my integrity to post content when I'm really dysregulated. So I have to like bridle myself and wait. I'm an emotional projector, so part of my design is learning how to ride emotional waves, and I always have the emotional up and the emotional down before I settle somewhere in the middle space. That can take minutes, it can take hours, it can take days, it can take weeks, so I just have a boundary with myself. If I'm in dysregulation about something, I don't post about it until I come back into a space of regulation. Usually, by the time I've come back into a space of regulation, that that experience has also been integrated, so I can speak about it from a more grounded place. It's also not within my integrity to present an image of perfectionism, and so I am very, very intentional about talking about my struggles, talking about when I have flare ups of anxiety or insomnia or when I'm going through a difficult time. I'm very open about stuff like that, and that's it seems to be, one of people's favorite things about me is that you can come to my page and you're going to get authentic, you're going to get real stuff. It's not going to be, you know. I mean, I just hired a professional photographer so those images will be edited, but for the last two years, I've just been taking selfies of myself with my phone and not editing them. So but, like it's just, I just refuse to play that game.
Speaker 3:And, and people I know, whenever you're in that state of unintegrated judgment, in that freeze, making any decision feels impossible, because there's this belief that no matter what I choose, I'm going to fuck something up, but you still have to make a choice, like, even if you don't want to, even if you're afraid it's the wrong choice, because staying stuck doesn't. Like if you change nothing, nothing changes. So you go nowhere if you don't make a choice. And so, like I have just made the choice to be transparent and people say they're like, oh, it must be so hard for you to be this vulnerable and I hope to get to this level of vulnerability one day and I'm like, no it, it is more hard for me to be inauthentic than it is for me to just be my fucking self and all of my imperfect glory. Like it's less effort.
Speaker 3:And so I wish, like I wish everyone could figure that out about their social media is, if you follow less people and you just have integrity in how you show up, then the content figures out itself. Like you know, and I think integrity is like something that gets talked about a lot in like social activism spaces, but like we need to be talking about it more in business spaces because, like I have a responsibility not just to my followers, not just to my clients, not just to my students, but I have a responsibility to myself to be in integrity and I have to have boundaries with myself to stay in integrity, because when I am in integrity I feel safe. When I'm out of integrity, it's like we were talking about earlier, what I'm presenting to the world and what I'm feeling on the inside don't match. And my word for this year, for 2023, was congruent, and I have been shown multiple little and big ways that there was in congruency happening. And so this year I've been slowly shifting to be back more into congruence with myself.
Speaker 3:But that's part of having integrity, and so I don't care what people think about my content. Like I post some hot takes sometimes I like a good mic drop moment. I don't think that that's bad. I want to be able to use my voice, because I wouldn't let myself use my voice for a really long time.
Speaker 3:But all of these things have come out of the years of work of unraveling and untangling that knot of perfectionism. And so when you've untangled that knot of perfectionism, enough like perfectionism for me shows up way more now in my intimate real life relationships than it does. On my relationship with the internet, you know, because, like I literally don't care what people on the internet think, but it's out of my integrity. It's not honest to say I don't care what anyone thinks. That's not honest, that's not true. I do what, care what some people think, I just don't care what the people on the internet think I care more about what the people in my real life think about me, because they actually know me and their opinions matter. So yeah, for me it's intentionality and integrity.
Speaker 3:Those are my two ways of how I've navigated the cesspool that is Instagram. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I have a question, lindsay, if you're open, I am when you're being transparent about a flare up of anxiety. Do you share about that? Like, do you go through an emotional wave before you share about that? Like, how does that work with being in a flare up but then also the dysregulation, because they seem to me at odds, but maybe they are.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for me they were at odds. At one point it was like I can't be in this difficult emotion and be able to talk about it at the same time, but like, as I've gotten better at feeling my feelings and being an awareness of that, and then also like meeting those feelings in a conscious way versus in a reactive way, so like I just shared on my stories this morning that I had really crazy anxiety all night last night, and so I laid in bed for hours, awake, feeling it.
Speaker 1:Same.
Speaker 3:Okay, so the photographer who stayed the night with us last night. She was like I had terrible anxiety all night long. So what is?
Speaker 2:my husband to yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay, something's going on, then this actually makes me feel better. I don't know why, because I don't know what is that. Yeah, so like I've gotten to the point now where sometimes, when I notice what I'm feeling, I wouldn't call it dysregulated just because I feel anxious, because I'm not meeting it in a dysregulated way, like the feeling is there, but the feeling doesn't get to control how I go through the experience, and so it's okay for me to talk about it because I'm in awareness about it and I'm not dysregulated, even if the sensations in my body are uncomfortable you know, what I'm hearing is potentially you're noticing it and engaging in relationship with it, rather than just being reactive from it.
Speaker 3:Correct. Yeah, it's like. What I teach in my work is we have unconscious reactions which people call like dysregulation, hyperarousal. Hyperarousal because we don't meet whatever it is we're feeling in that moment with awareness. And like, if you meet anger with awareness, you can take the big, fast energy of anger and you can channel it into boundaries and assertion and leadership and courage. Right, if you don't meet that anger with awareness, it becomes like violence and yelling and rage and hurts other people. So I'm in my integrity when I meet my emotions with awareness. I'm not in my integrity when I don't meet my emotions with awareness. Like I have a responsibility to meet my emotions with awareness because when I don't, my reactions hurt self and they hurt other people and I have a responsibility to reduce harm in my life. So, yeah, that's how I can talk about it without it being dysregulated, even when I'm having an uncomfortable feeling.
Speaker 2:Love that distinction. Thank you Thanks.
Speaker 1:I know what I'm also hearing in that is like you're able to like. I think that a lot of times we have a tendency to like over, like overlap, a lot of different stories on top of each other, and what I'm hearing in how you're explaining this is you have anxiety, right, and you're not like overlaying the dysregulation of showing up on social media with that anxiety on top of the anxiety. It's like you can sort of keep them in two separate corners and talk about one without having that affect the other one, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and being able to do that has been developed with practice and I haven't done it perfectly, so I don't always meet my emotions with awareness, or I don't always stay in awareness whenever I'm riding an emotional wave. But yeah, I can. I feel like at this point I am pretty good at being able to like separate. Okay, here's what's happening in this current moment, here's what may be informing that, here's something that I could let it dribble into. But they're not related and so I'm not going to let those stories like merge into two bigger, bigger story. But it's just a lot of practice and it's not really anything that I feel like I can like put words to very well.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I also want to like just name to that, like what you know I'm sure you were just sort of alluding to. I don't know how you can be so vulnerable online, like that statement. I think that oftentimes people are maybe mixing up vulnerability and regulation versus dysregulation, because I've gotten those kinds of comments before too and it's like again, it's one of those things where it's hard to put into words but like it's not dysregulating to be vulnerable, like you were saying earlier, it is actually more dysregulating to be inauthentic, and so it's about sort of stretching that window of tolerance when it comes to, like the regulation that you're able to show up with online. And I think for a lot of folks in my community who are coaches or showing up in some sort of like space holding capacity, this is such an important thing to be in awareness around, because for me, the integrity piece around I don't show up in dysregulation or reactivity is because I don't want people coming onto my page feeling any sort of sticky energy like they have to take care of me.
Speaker 1:You know I'm there in service and so when I post out of regulation and out of a sense of service and out of a sense of support, you know that is what I'm able to do for free on the Internet and it's not a reciprocal relationship. You know, it's not like when I come and and text you, lindsay, and be like, oh, I'm having the struggle with a client of mine and can you support me through that, like there's like a, there's a back and forth right and and that doesn't show up on the online space. And I think that people get that really confused, thinking that it is a reciprocal relationship when it is not.
Speaker 3:Right, right, yeah, I have a workshop that I teach about this. It's called protect your space and it's like I had to do a lot because I went through like a year and a half of attempted cancellation with like people lying about me and screenshotting my stuff and saying that I was like in QAnon and like all kinds of weird things, and like I was part of a group of people at that time that were kind of all going through various online cancellations and it was a really supportive space for me Because I felt like those people got it, like I could talk to them and they got it, and that felt really good. It was co-regulation that I really really needed to get through a difficult period and they're sort of like policy in the group and I perceived them as experts because they've been going through cancellation longer than me and they like had written a bunch about it and I was just new in this and was like what the fuck is going on? Why are people nuts? And so the group that I was in their sort of like advice was when people do this to you, when they screenshot yourself, when they lie about you, when they send their followers to make shitty comments and send you DMs talking about what a terrible person you are, like just gray rock, just no contact, just blocked elite, like don't even get any energy whatsoever. And so that's what I did for a long time and I thought I'm being good, like I'm doing the right thing. I'm just turning the other cheek and those bullies are coming into my space but I'm not doing anything about it because I'm so good and peaceful and right.
Speaker 3:And just this year I had a woman come and leave a comment on one of my videos where I was posting some sensual movement, and she was like this is just sexually awkward. You look like a baby giraffe who's learning how to walk. It's cringy, it's clumsy, but you need some more practice and then you'll be okay. And like I read that comment and I had all kinds of feelings and I texted my friend Chelsea and I was like what the fuck? Because she's an essential dancer also.
Speaker 3:And she was like well, what about this is so activating for you? Like what, if you look like a baby giraffe, is that bad? And I was like well, no, but initially it was bad. If I looked like a baby giraffe, like initially it was. And she's like okay, but like are you okay with looking like if you are a little clumsy or if you lack a little bit of grace, like are you okay with the fact that you're a beginner at this and you're learning and it's not perfect, and that this person is just like placing these standards of perfectionism on you through criticism of what you're vulnerably posting? And I was like, yeah, yeah, and I can be proud of myself for showing up in this way because it is authentic and it is vulnerable and that doesn't have to mean anything to me. And so what I realized after that was how much of my life in the name of goodness and like being the bigger person and turning the other cheek how much I had actually absorbed people's shit.
Speaker 3:I had to take it on and take it on, and I wasn't allowed to say anything about it. I wasn't allowed to fight back or defend myself. I wasn't allowed to stand up for myself. Like I just had to absorb, absorb, absorb. And this goes all the way back till I was a little little girl right in school getting bullied. Oh, just turn the other cheek, lindsay, god wants you to turn the other cheek. Jesus would turn the other cheek. Be the bigger person. The bullies just want to reaction of you. Don't give them the reaction Like. That's the conditioning I was programmed with. What did that cause me to do? Repress my own anger Right, repress my ability to stand up for myself. What happens when you repress anger? Well, you don't go back up to safety. You go down into freeze or collapse.
Speaker 3:So what I've started doing instead is examining like this group I was a part of, I left it. And then I just honestly asked myself like, what purpose is it serving for me to try to protect the identities of the people that say mean things to me? Like, why am I doing that? And it comes down to like, well, that's what I'm, that's being the bigger person and I was like. But being the bigger person has meant like I'm carrying and absorbing this shit and like I don't want to do that anymore, like I want to use my voice. I want to be able to access that anger and defend myself and set boundaries and not allow shit like this in my space. And so I completely changed my approach and now if somebody leaves me a shitty comment, I screenshot it and share it on my stories and I don't block out their name or anything. So this is a long story going into what you were saying about showing up in dysregulation and how your followers might perceive that. So I've had, when I've done that, I've had some followers who have been like you're no better than they are because now you're publicly shaming them, and I'm like dude, this is a public Instagram account. Anyone can go through my comments and read this comment, but I'm not going to absorb this person's shit by not putting out there here's what's getting said and here's why it's not acceptable, like here's what you're not allowed to do in my space.
Speaker 3:But because people are filtering through their own thing, they see, oh, she's naming someone. That's the same thing as shaming them, and so they think I'm dysregulated when I'm actually not, and so they project that I'm dysregulated onto me when it's like no, this feels like the most grounded thing for me to do right now is to, like, use my agency and allow myself to use my anger to call out behavior that's inappropriate and that I will not tolerate. So maybe that's a hot take and people don't agree, but, like it, actually I need to be able to access anger. I'm done repressing my anger and I'm figuring it out, and maybe that's going to look messy. I'm not going to figure out anger perfectly, right, like it's not going to be perfect. I'm going to do some things that are probably outside of my integrity.
Speaker 3:I actually did that recently where I got really angry at a person in real life and some of my friends were watching and afterwards I felt this like hot cloak of shame because of how I behaved. And then I realized like I feel this shame because in my anger I was out of my integrity. Like I didn't meet that anger with awareness and channel it into boundaries and assertion. Instead, I like yelled at someone and threatened to fight them. So I'm not going to fight anybody. This is a tourist who came to my area, in case you don't know the story, natalie.
Speaker 3:But anyway, like I'm saying all of that and bringing an anger into the conversation, because anger is a really important emotion for people in perfectionism to be able to process Like yes, play, yes, pleasure, but also anger, because your anger, if you can channel it, is what allows you to say no to the perfectionism. It's what allows you to unfollow the people on the internet that make you compare yourself to them so that you can get your own energy bubble back. It's not leaky everywhere, like that's been. The biggest thing I've worked on this year is honestly like my relationship to anger. And when anger comes up in my body, rather than being like, oh, I can't be angry, like I got to stuff it down, like it's not ladylike or I'm a bitch or whatever, like I can't be, that is like just practicing, meeting it with awareness, and sometimes I succeeded that and sometimes I don't, and when I don't, I try to repair afterwards.
Speaker 1:But yeah, when I don't allow the anger to be there, I fall right back down into freeze Like it's I don't know If I can just add a little bit to that, because you know, if we're talking about like digestible small steps and small chunks, you know sometimes that step of just blocking and deleting is necessary.
Speaker 1:Because I remember last year I had I mean, not to the like same extent that you've experienced, lindsay, but like I had somebody come after me, she screenshotted some stuff and was sharing it to her people and she happened to have a really big following, and so then I had this like on saw people, like on my page, trying to cancel me.
Speaker 1:And I remember reaching out to you at that time and I was just like I don't know what to do, like I don't want to shut down anyone else's voice, Like I went into this whole like good girl way of thinking and I remember you, you just saying like just block and delete them, like yeah, and and for me, like that was the necessary first step that I could take to just get myself back into regulation because I don't want to be seen as somebody who's shutting down someone's voice. And then, as soon as I started blocking and deleting people, of course, then there's another wave of books were coming on being like see, like you're censoring, and and you know. So I think that I needed that necessary stuff, and then earlier this year I had a very similar thing come up, so he was calling me out on the ways that I'm talking about capitalism and you know, saying that I'm a hypocrite because I also make money and yeah, so how can you be anti capitalistic?
Speaker 3:Not essentially capitalistic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Okay, and, and I screen shot at those and I shared them on my stories because, like, essentially my Instagram page is my storefront and you know you don't go into somebody's beautifully curated ceramics pottery shop and start like flinging shit all over the walls and expect them to just take it.
Speaker 1:Like, if that were to happen, I would take a picture of you and I would put it up on the wall and be like this person is not allowed in my space anymore and this is why, and so you know, I think that there's this weird thing and to me it goes back to I don't know.
Speaker 1:I feel that the need to just like, share that like I'm going to talk about rape In the next couple minutes, but like I remember when I was raped when I was young, I had this like same feeling of like if I say something about this person, it's going to ruin his life. Like not even considering that he had had like such a huge, lasting, traumatic impact on my life. But I went into the space of like if I name him, if I point him out, it's going to change the way that our families interact with each other. It's going to change he had a girlfriend at the time. It's going to change his relationship with his girlfriend, it's going to change everything about his life, and so I, as you were saying, absorbed that and carried that pain as my own for decades.
Speaker 3:His life didn't change at all. His life didn't change, and your life was the one that was impacted.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so to me, like actually posting and saying, hey, you aren't allowed to say that, and this is their Instagram handle, and most of the time when that shit happens, they have a private Instagram handle with, like you know, they aren't even being vulnerable, and like putting their stuff out there in a public facing way, and so, like it's important to name the perpetrators when bad behavior is happening, and I think that to me, it goes back to this like this, this threat of perfectionism, because I think perfectionism and like good girl, good boy, are like siblings of of what was it? Perseverance and shame.
Speaker 3:Well, perseverance and shame are mommy and daddy. Yeah, the girl and the perfectionist are like.
Speaker 1:I like the siblings yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's so important for you to share that cat and and yeah, it is good girl programming and perfectionism, because, like, the good girl is inherently perfectionistic and it's all about like, how are other people perceiving me? I want to be seen as good, I want to be seen as worthy, I want to be seen as pretty, I want to be seen as perfect, and so if I follow these made up arbitrary social media rules wherein I don't ever say anything when someone is mean to me, then I can still be perfect and good and worthy and sweet and docile and like all of this stuff right, but it teaches people how to treat you and so for. For every time and I haven't had to do it maybe less than five times have I like actually screenshot and left their handle and everything, and not something I have to do very often. But I used to get so many more shitty comments, shitty DMs, like whenever I just blocked and deleted and tried to hide it. Then when I started calling it out, and when I started calling it out, the number of shitty comments and DMs I would get like dropped by like 80%, like it was a drastic reduction, and I felt so empowered because I was like Finally, I don't have to have my emotional energy going towards this, because just because I block and delete somebody doesn't mean that that hasn't taken some emotional energy or labor. Like in my own body. I still have to read their comment, I still have to watch her call me a fucking cringy baby giraffe learning how to walk.
Speaker 3:Like that hurts. Why. Why do I have to protect you and absorb this and give it my emotional labor, while you just go on with your fucking life because you don't know me and your account is private and you've made zero posts and you have zero followers? Like what the fuck I'm actually making a difference in people's lives, you know? Like um, and so yeah, that was an unwinding of perfectionism and good girl for me.
Speaker 3:Like most of my followers, the ones who have commented for every one comment I get about your publicly shaming someone. That's not nice. For every one comment I get like that, I get 10 that are like Thank you for showing me how to set a boundary on the internet. Thank you for showing me that it's okay for me to be angry and call out bad behavior. Like people are watching us model how we handle these things and they're learning by it, and so, if I can set that example for someone like, I feel really honored to be able to do that, because I'm not in the business of continuing to empower people to repress their voice, their anger or their agency. I want to empower people to use their anger, their voice and their agency. Yeah, Sorry, I feel like I could just like preach a sermon on that forever.
Speaker 2:I'm over here just like you guys are, just like saying the things with popping in my head and answering my psychic questions. It is great, I'm just sitting here having a great time, yeah, yeah, I feel like one thing too is the the like it really is, this great hall of mirrors of perfectionism, because of those constructs placed on us, and so people are projecting their own perfectionism onto others and then getting mad and then, like I've you know, I see you, lindsay, refusing to try to accommodate these impossible expectations of others, and that's a pattern interrupt. And if you think about going to the ocean and there's waves, and when a wave comes against the shore, that's when it breaks, or when it hits against the rocky walls and it goes back and that it creates turbulence. But there, you know, these pattern interrupts are going to be weird sometimes.
Speaker 2:But this is like I think this is such a huge, important thing in my own journey as well being able to access self protection and the knowledge and trust in myself that if I have to protect myself, I will fucking do it. I will stab a bitch, like I hope I never have to, absolutely, but the fact that I have the ability to even access that part of me that is like a tire with teeth and claws and it will just like rip into someone's neck and fucking kill them. Like I'm like, wow, that's really cool. That's like a very deep animalistic thing that I have no intention or desire to go out and enact, but I'm like, wow, okay, great, I can. I'm more of the full spectrum of my animal self and that helps me be who I am in the world, because I know that I can be soft and vulnerable but also like think of cat.
Speaker 2:I love cats, I love cat, but I also love cats. And so like thinking of like you know, they're soft, they're soft fur and they're so sweet, and then you tickle their belly and they're like it's like you know, we can be all that and I love just seeing it modeled in a way that is going to probably upset people because of their own inherent biases and cons, you know, unchecked biases and constructs that they're carrying, and all of these things that they don't even know, that they don't know, and that can be really challenging when you're a way show or a visionary or a seer or a changemaker and that can cause one to question am I doing it right? And then go on a perfectionism loop and like these are just things to name and why it's so important to have conversations publicly like this, so that others can know that there's so much more to the, to the picture, than what they might be experiencing or others might be saying like it's, it's a fucking jumbled mess out there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 100% ditto.
Speaker 1:Well, I just want to take a pause and see if there's anything else on either of your guys's hearts that like feels really important to just throw out there.
Speaker 3:I do want to add to what Natalie was saying. The word that came out that she was saying that was like range. And I'm picturing the polyvagal ladder in my head and so like your nervous system, when it's functioning optimally, is supposed to flexibly move in and out of those states in whatever way is appropriate for whatever's in front of you at that time real or perceived. And where perfectionism sits on that ladder is, you know, it's kind of close to the middle bottom of the ladder, like it's not all the way to the bottom, but it's not. It's not above the middle, it's kind of below the middle and there's not very much range there. Like where there is range when it's like I can experience like deep grief all the way up to like crazy anger, all the way up to like sheer joy and pleasure, like in play, so like that's a big range. Right, when I was in the energy of perfectionism I didn't have access to any of that shit, like there was no range because of the rigidity, right. So the nervous system is meant to be flexible, resilient and have capacity. When you're in a perfectionistic state, you're not resilient, you don't have a lot of capacity and you're not really flexible. Like you kind of stay stuck in that state. So I just felt like it was important to just like say that that there is a range of emotional availability to you outside of this like rigid box of perfectionism.
Speaker 3:And then the other thing that I want to say because, again, integrity is such a big thing for me is that I think that we are more likely to fawn, please and appease when we're in a freeze or a shutdown state. I'm way less. I'm not going to fawn if I'm fucking pissed at you. You know what I mean. Like I'm not going to roll over and tuck my tail between my legs and submit and do whatever you want, because I still have access to like that movement and that mobilization.
Speaker 3:When I don't have access to that, that's when I'm more likely to fawn. I'm more likely to people please. I'm more likely to be perfectionistic because, let's be honest, being a perfectionist is people pleasing Like. So getting out of that state can be challenging, but it's so worth it because when you stop people pleasing everybody else to believe that you were this some perfect, magical version, you know unicorn thing that doesn't actually exist like, then you get the walls just like crumble down and now you have a range to like, move up and down and, like you don't stay stuck in one state, your nervous system responds as it's meant to respond it discharges, the threat's gone and it goes back to safe. And that doesn't happen when you're in a chronic, freeze, perfectionistic state. So that's all I had left to add.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful. I feel like the three of us can talk for another three hours like easily, for sure. Natalie, do you have anything else you want to just like drop in with?
Speaker 2:No, because anything I have to say will just be another tangent into a whole other direction. So I think this is a good spot, like maybe just a reminder or an invitation to listeners to notice if they're placing any pressure on themselves to get their journey of perfectionism perfect and you know, just be a little meta about it and notice that, and that's a good place to start if one's wondering where to start.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Get curious about your perfectionism.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and I think that for me, the last little piece that I kind of want to land with is like something that we've returned to over and over again in this conversation is little steps really matter. You know, like, take the little step, take the little wins. Just notice how, you know, maybe your body feels slightly differently from the last time you experienced this, like wave of perfectionism and have that be exactly perfect and good enough, and I think that that's something that I needed to hear back when I was sort of still stuck in the thralls of perfectionism and OCD. And yeah, it just it feels important to name that like like you don't get to the splits, like without a lot of like stretching and micro wins along the way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's that steak up, yeah cut the steak up, yeah, and what people need to know from a nervous system perspective about cutting the steak up and little, small, sustainable changes are what will lead you to the best growth is that there's this you know the concept of expansion and contraction and it's like the process of coming out of perfectionism is a very expansive process, right, when you can expand and hold that full range and you're not in that little contracted box of perfectionism and freeze. But you know Newton's third laws for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. And so what people need to know, going into like any kind of work like this, is that when you make the choice to change or do something different excuse me, that's an expansive thing, right, it's an expansive thing Even to just make the decision. I'm going to try this as a step of expansion equal opposite reaction.
Speaker 3:If you have some big expansion, the resulting contraction is going to be just as big, right, and so you are going to go through your process a lot more sustainably when you have little expansions and little contractions, versus really big expansions and then really big contractions that feel like a spanking from the universe, you know. So, yeah, slow healing is much more sustainable. Anyway, it takes a long time to turn a big ship around, and you know it's worth the time that it takes, though, because if you don't do it too quickly and expand and contract too big, but you do it in little steak pieces, little steak bites, instead of one big steak, you're, it's more likely to stick Like. It's more likely to last.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And if one wants to go into a big expansion, then then one could welcome that. Just expect that contraction and don't wonder what right If you did something wrong, like I recently went on a camping trip and it was so fun and so intense and then I needed literally a week of like nothing in order to recover. And that was a choice. And I know that if I go on a big adventure I'm going to need a time to recover. And this is a huge part of what's missing in our society is that recognition of that recovery that decomposition and that composting for the new growth.
Speaker 3:So yeah, yeah, cause the story people tell themselves when they experience the contraction and they don't know about the principle of expansion and contraction, is they're like oh, I feel amazing, I'm in this expansive, free place, you know, I didn't look at me go, and then the contraction hits and then they're like shit, all that work was for nothing and I'm not any better and I just keep going back in these same patterns.
Speaker 3:What the fuck is wrong with me? Like that's where it goes If you're not aware that the contraction is going to happen, which sounds a whole lot like what perfectionism in the journey.
Speaker 2:Cause I can't.
Speaker 3:I want to ride the expansions, but I don't want to ride the contraction. It's like sorry babe, you don't get to pick Like, you got to do them both yeah.
Speaker 1:And as space holders, I think it's also important to remember that as well. You know, if one year clients is moving through that, um, like kind of I've come to now expect like hey, we went through like a big breakthrough, let's celebrate that, and like that's awesome. And I don't necessarily always say it, but I'm always like like checking in after because I know that there's going to be some level of contraction Yep, yeah, yep, same.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we got to catch there. And especially for your people in freeze, they don't always reach out, yeah, you know, they don't always tell you yeah. And so then you go a week and a half without hearing from them and then you have your next session and all of a sudden they're like my life sucks, everything is bad, I'm broken, I'm a miserable piece of shit and I'm like oh, you've been in a contraction for two weeks and you didn't tell me yeah. Like we could have moved through that a lot faster if you just had some support and co-regulation, to just have somebody attuned to you and be like, of course you're experiencing a contraction.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Of course you are, yeah. And that's okay, it'll pass yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, my loves, how can people find you?
Speaker 2:Just hop on the magic rainbow and see where it takes you and I'll be there. Speak to a banana slug and don't whisper your message to me. No, I'm at Natalienet N-A-T-A-L-I-Enet. It's like a terribly old website at this point and probably best to just get on my newsletter, which is where I share and, yeah, hit me up, email, contact me. I'm down to talk. What's up? Yeah?
Speaker 3:So on Instagram I am Lindsay Lockett, with an EY, not an AY. I have a podcast called Holistic Trauma Healing Podcast that you can listen to. You can click on my Instagram bio. I have freebies and stuff in there. My website is lenzilockettcom. I don't know any banana slugs, so a carrier pigeon might work.
Speaker 2:Stuff, that's substitution.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, thanks. I feel like Minnesota to California is like that's a long way for a banana slug to traverse.
Speaker 3:I don't think banana slugs will live here. It's probably too cold, but I have a lot of them.
Speaker 2:No, they have a very slim. Okay, yeah, you can talk to them.
Speaker 3:Slugs, sloths, detritivores, they're all good, okay, no sloths, but how about you?
Speaker 2:Thanks for having us Sloths not detritivore. Yeah, thanks for having us. I guess the name. I am intending to create a new podcast. I used to have one called Earthspeak. Well, I still haven't. I haven't posted anything there for a long time. But I'm intending to create a new podcast called Noticing with Natalie, so you all get on my email list to know about that when this little reflector gets out to making it.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much and, yeah, I get to see each other soon.
Speaker 3:But yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was really good. This is a long chat, but yeah. I know people just got like a masterclass on perfectionism.
Speaker 2:I know the only way would be better is if we were all in a hot spring and eating good snacks the whole time, and that would be a lot of fun.