If you’ve caught yourself bending over backwards to accomodate others only to feel drained and undervalued, this is a must-listen episode for you. My dear friends Nervous System Coach Lindsay Lockett and Intuitive Nourishment Guide Vanessa Rodriguez join me in a vulnerable chat about a survival mechanism we unwittingly latch onto - people pleasing.
We dissect the roots of this behavior and its relationship to how we relate to the energetic resources of the Earth Archetype. Drawing from our personal journeys, we illuminate how this behavior stems from societal and parental conditioning, manifesting as self-abandonment. We shed light on how the expectation for spiritual entrepreneurs to prove their value through service has fueled this pattern and how it could be taking a toll on your wellbeing and your business.
Resources:
To learn more about the energetics of Earth Element and People-Pleasing, check out the archives:
Venessa Rodriguez is an intuitive nourishment guide and creatrix behind the Feed Your Wild podcast. She’s on a mission to re-member the soul back into medicine, helping wild-hearted practitioners and healers step out of the “spiritual closet” and into their soul calling & medicine through intuitive-based healing work embracing their unique gifts.
Connect with Venessa:
Lindsey Lockett is a trauma educator and coach who specializes in working with the autonomic nervous system. Through private and group coaching and one-of-a-kind workshop experiences, Lindsey guides her clients and students toward building trusting relationships with their bodies. She is the host of the Holistic Trauma Healing podcast and lives on the North Shore of Lake Superior on her 5-acre homestead with her husband, 2 teenagers, 2 dogs, and 10 chickens.
Connect with Lindsey:
Kat HoSoo Lee is a trauma-informed Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Rooted Business Podcast. She uses the tools of somatic and emotional alchemy to guide soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. This allows them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, ethical marketing and purposeful service.
Connect with Kat:
This podcast is made possible with sound production by Andre Lagace.
If you’ve caught yourself bending over backwards to accomodate others only to feel drained and undervalued, this is a must-listen episode for you. My dear friends Nervous System Coach Lindsay Lockett and Intuitive Nourishment Guide Vanessa Rodriguez join me in a vulnerable chat about a survival mechanism we unwittingly latch onto - people pleasing.
We dissect the roots of this behavior and its relationship to how we relate to the energetic resources of the Earth Archetype. Drawing from our personal journeys, we illuminate how this behavior stems from societal and parental conditioning, manifesting as self-abandonment. We shed light on how the expectation for spiritual entrepreneurs to prove their value through service has fueled this pattern and how it could be taking a toll on your wellbeing and your business.
Resources:
To learn more about the energetics of Earth Element and People-Pleasing, check out the archives:
Venessa Rodriguez is an intuitive nourishment guide and creatrix behind the Feed Your Wild podcast. She’s on a mission to re-member the soul back into medicine, helping wild-hearted practitioners and healers step out of the “spiritual closet” and into their soul calling & medicine through intuitive-based healing work embracing their unique gifts.
Connect with Venessa:
Lindsey Lockett is a trauma educator and coach who specializes in working with the autonomic nervous system. Through private and group coaching and one-of-a-kind workshop experiences, Lindsey guides her clients and students toward building trusting relationships with their bodies. She is the host of the Holistic Trauma Healing podcast and lives on the North Shore of Lake Superior on her 5-acre homestead with her husband, 2 teenagers, 2 dogs, and 10 chickens.
Connect with Lindsey:
Kat HoSoo Lee is a trauma-informed Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Rooted Business Podcast. She uses the tools of somatic and emotional alchemy to guide soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. This allows them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, ethical marketing and purposeful service.
Connect with Kat:
This podcast is made possible with sound production by Andre Lagace.
Hello and welcome to the podcast, excited to have my buddies here today. We've got Lindsay Lockett, vanessa Rodriguez and we're going to talk about people pleasing and before we get into oh my gosh, so many things that we can get into with people pleasing such a common pattern, slash survival mechanism for folks, and just to give us a little bit of sort of like backbone and spine to stand on, I'm going to relate it to the earth element, the late summer season, and then I'll sort of like just open it up and flow the way that we like to flow. So, late summer in Dallas, medicine is associated with the earth element and if we think about us living in cyclical ways with earth, I think about late summer as like harvest time. I think oftentimes in our Western culture we think of harvest time as being the fall, and but if you have a garden, just like August, september, like the amount of tomatoes and cucumbers and zucchini, just like the pure, sheer amount of like food that comes from your garden in late summer, is just like you know why late summer is associated with like the earth? Because the earth is in such a state of like giving and providing at that moment. And so when I was thinking through, like, what kind of patterns can we associate with the energy of this time?
Speaker 1:People pleasing came to mind, because there's a lot of giving, there's a lot of like. Here is the fruit of my labor and I am in a generous sort of space if we've been nourished. And so if you think about that garden, if your garden's been nourished and you've done a lot of the work and the care and the tending and the like, building up the soil, there's this reciprocal relationship between you and the garden in such a way that the garden is feeding you but then you're also feeding the garden. When I think about people pleasing, it's a one way sort of a dynamic where there's not a lot of reciprocity involved and it is a lot of just giving, giving.
Speaker 1:Giving which makes me think of monocultures, which makes me think of extractivism, which makes me think of, like, a lot of the ways in which I'm going to just say like women have been conditioned to be valuable and to to, you know, offer service in the world and and a lot of folks who listen to this podcast, a lot of service providers tend to be, you know, women, and so like we can sort of get into a lot of these, these concepts, I think, as we, as we play with this, this theme around people pleasing. But I, before we get into it, I want to just open it up and see like, why did you two volunteer to talk about people pleasing with me? What is it about this topic that feels resonant and important for you to to lend your wisdom and your voice to?
Speaker 2:Let you go first, Vanessa.
Speaker 3:Well, I have. I have many thoughts already on what you just shared, Kat. I love the beautiful framework that you are weaving in, so I think I'm going to try to save some of this for later. But to answer your question, I think, well, it's definitely something that I have struggled with profoundly as a child and into early adulthood, and I still have patterns of people pleasing for sure. I feel like it's much more insidious. It comes through in just sneaky ways and then I catch myself and now, having a child who's a toddler and having to be quite literally the boundary for him, it's, it's brought it to a next level and I see how it's much easier to be a boundary for others, I think, than like to at least it is in my experience to have really solid, beautiful boundaries that are protective but also allow for interrelating. That is healthy.
Speaker 3:That was very challenging for me and I coming into motherhood has brought a totally different perspective on it, like it's brought out in me a little bit more of that fierce mama and asking and being aware of, like how I literally do not show up for myself in that same way, or I haven't for most of my life and and also seeing sometimes failing to even do that for my own child, like seeing my own patterns still come up when it comes to my child, which is even more heartbreaking for me, right, because it's about me, it's not about him.
Speaker 3:So I think that there, there are so many different seasons of our lives that, like this will come up and up again If it is something that you are challenged with, and I think so many people are.
Speaker 3:And and, yeah, I think just I love the space also that you cultivate for these conversations, because I feel like we can show up super vulnerable, honest, like show our colors and being fully transparent.
Speaker 3:That like I still struggle with this, but here are some ways that I have found to support myself and just to kind of like you know, yeah, that we're all in this together, right so, and just sharing ideas, and I'm, and I was also excited to be a part of like an actual conversation with a couple of other people, and with Lindsay you in particular too, because, yeah, I know I love what you share and you are so transparent in your sharing and it's really inspiring and I think that you touch on a lot of really hard, challenging things that people go through, that everybody at some point in their lives goes through, and to be the one to step up and be that brave enough like, have the courage to be like here I am and light my nakedness around this is very healing, and so any kind of conversation that fosters that like I'm really excited to be part of. So that's, that's what I'm here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hmm, thank you, vanessa, that's. I thank you as a projector. It is always so nice for people to see me and reflect that back to me, what they see. It makes me feel really like validated and like I'm doing something right, so I appreciate that so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the reason why I was so interested to have a conversation with you all about people pleasing is obviously people pleaser and recovery myself, and this past year especially, I've gotten to touch on some self abandonment that has probably existed for my whole life and I just really didn't see how much it was affecting me until this last year. And the self abandonment is around if I perceive that someone is disappointed with me or that they're not approving of me in that moment, and because I have a collection of Adaptions and symptoms that people call complex PTSD, one of the ways that shows up for me is I'm very sensitive and hyper vigilant to people's facial expressions and body language and tone of voice, and so I often read Into something Fear of mine that's not actually present, and then my own nervous system perceives oh my gosh, they're not approving of me, I've disappointed them in some way, unconscious self abandon, do whatever I have to do to get their approval back and then going into a shame fuss later because I didn't catch myself in the moment and stick out for myself in the moment, and so this is something that I've just. I've just gone around and around and around this mountain and it's been really hard. But I also work with a lot of people. Who, who people, please I merely work with women and I think that, as I've grown in my business and like my Instagram account has literally like Grown and grown and grown, it has shown me where I have to be the boundary for myself. Because, like when I had, you know, two 300 followers, it was like so cute to be able to answer everyone's DMs and it was so cute to like be able to have these sweet interactions in the comments and like really start to know the people that were following me. And now, like If I did that To maintain that same level of connection, because I know that pleases people right, like people want to talk to me, they want FaceTime with me, they want my opinion about stuff, like I get it.
Speaker 2:But it's impossible for me to maintain that level of being on all the time and of availability all the time, and so I've had to do a lot of work within myself of like untangling that knot of what is it in me that has this urge to be constantly available and why do I feel bad when I don't get back to everyone? And like, what is that all about for me? And so it has been this just process of like self exploration and self awareness Into seeing even more that my core wound truly is abandonment. And so I, people please and abandon myself to avoid being abandoned by the other person, and it's out of integrity. I'm not taking responsibility for myself when I do that. It's not healthy for the relationship, it's not honest and, yeah, it can feel really sticky sometimes. So I'm excited to hear what you all have to say about people pleasing too, because it'll probably help me.
Speaker 1:And like full disclosure. The reason this is going to be a series and this is the first of the series of like patterns that are associated with specific elements and with specific seasons, right, and the reason why I picked each of these subjects is because, like, I'm a recovering version of all of those and will probably be a recovering version of all of those for the rest of my life. And, you know, just because I have better coping skills, better awareness, you know, a more flexible nervous system does not mean that in times of threat, like, I'm completely immune to all of this. Right, I love what you just shared about the self abandonment piece because, you know, as spiritual entrepreneurs, I see this show up mostly when it comes to pricing and niching. Like those are like the two places that I see people go into, these people pleasing patterns, because it's like in the niching aspect, so many of us are like, oh, but I can help so many people if I can just be a generalist or if I can just be soft and cozy and not ruffle feathers. This is one of the reasons why I love you. Know, I love you as a friend, lindsay, but also, like love, following you on Instagram is because there's this edge of like, like connectivity, that comes from truth and authenticity, you know, and for me that feels much more alive and potent than somebody who is just trying to make sure that, like, we're not ruffling any feathers.
Speaker 1:And then, when it comes to pricing, I was just having a conversation with a client right before this where it comes down to self abandonment as well, where she hasn't raised her prices in a very, very long time. She's priced way under the market for what she's doing and she's scared to speak to specific clients of hers who have been with her for a long time. And, you know, even though they've told her like hey, you should probably raise your prices, like she still have this has this feeling of like what if they abandoned me? And so in that process I'm going to abandon myself and not charge a price that would be equitable and reciprocal Because all, like a lot of us who are recovering people pleases, or our people pleasers, are willing to take the discomfort on rather than put the discomfort on somebody else. So, yeah, that's I mean I feel like I needed to answer that question too, because, like, full disclosure, like I'm not sitting here like on a precipice and being like, well, I am all fully recovered, like I think that this is, this is a pattern that is important to continue to like unpack and, like you were saying, vanessa, like it comes in these more subtle layers.
Speaker 1:It comes in sort of like sneaky, tricky ways, and yet the flavor is still the same, the texture is still the same. So then, how can we create nuance within these new textures of us continuing to like spiral in these in this life? So, yeah, I'm curious, because you were like Vanessa, you were like I have things to say based on the elements of the season. So like I wanted to open it up and be like okay, so like let's, let's talk about what's coming up for you in terms of of you know, being an animist in this world and seeing our own reflections within nature.
Speaker 3:Well, the first there was so much that was coming up around Earth and the, especially the extraction and domination piece from this. You know this dynamic of working with a being that is Earth, that is Gaia, that's living, that is so like Gaia. Earth's nature is prosperity, it's like abundance, it's giving, it's like here I am right in these, in these cycles, and and to to have disharmony and relationship with that, I think, is we see that so often reflected in human relationships. And when I think about late summer, you know my orientation is with Western astrology but they're all connected, right, like I just love how, because I think about Virgo as a sign and Virgos are like September, right, ish, virgos are dutiful, they're devotional, like totally devoted and care, they care so much they are the one of my teachers calls them the dutiful donkey like they will take all your shit and they'll go up that mountain, you know, and they want to care for the community and the family, to possibly the detriment of their own health. And we see in terms in medical astrology, a lot of the patterns of imbalance for Virgo are anxiety, issues with a solar plexus, digestive issues, a lot of taking on energetically in that center, and really that's that's disempowering oneself to right, that's a, that's a kind of self abandonment when you give so much of yourself in that sort of like that extreme end of the archetype. And so how, really, looking at that, we all have, we all have pieces of all the archetypes right and all the signs, and we all have those varying experiences.
Speaker 3:But coming back to like, if I think about how do we bring balance and coherence back to this, this, this archetype of, like the devotional, dutiful earthkeeper, because Virgo is like super earthy right, and to me it's it's all about coming into right, relationship with self, of course, like primarily, and remembering our true nature, remembering our connection to earth, our innate capacity for prosperity, but also honoring that we have our own seasons and that, like their mama earth has her boundaries. She like in all these different manifested forms, I mean, even if we want to look at flowers and plants, like how gnarly and thorny some of them can be right, like really like spiky and and you, they absolutely have that kind of boundary energy. And then of course we have others that are soft and like inviting, I mean delicate, but there's always a balance. So I I find it easier for me to sink into my mind, my mind wants to go into like mythic and archetypal and connection to nature in that way, because it's almost easier for me to embody and deeper understanding of what that actually means, versus like being in my mind space of like, okay, what the f do I do and what do I say? You know, to like, make this right with this person, or to feel comfortable again, because the other thing with with Virgo, to and this has been my experience growing up, not not even having any understanding of this as a child, of course my highly empathic nature of Virgo and of humans, right, the highly empathic, sensitive nature you're literally taking on the energies and thoughts of other people, not realizing that they're not your own. And so one of the things that I, my coping mechanism or, or you know, really was a form of trying to survive, was keeping the peace and people pleasing so that I didn't feel what they were feeling.
Speaker 3:And it took me over 20 years to really understand that that's what was happening. And it was because I didn't know how to, I didn't know how to set up filters, I didn't even know that, like, that's what was happening and I think that even adults, you know, as for my clients and all the students in my program adults don't know how, don't realize that this is what they're doing, this is what's actually happening, and so I think, when we can again connect back to earth and connect back to these like really innate ways of embodying those kinds of boundaries, we automatic because it's not a mental process, it's, it's more of like a body process right, it's an embodiment process, it we can begin to set up some of those boundaries without even realizing that, like we're actually that's what we're doing. You know those energetic boundaries. So anyway, that's what was coming through. I know there's a lot there, but I thought it was such a beautiful setup with late summer I'm like, oh my God, of course I've never even thought about that before.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, so many. Yeah. No, I have things to say too, but please go.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, I don't know anything about Western astrology other than what my own signs are, and apparently Mercury is very dominant in my chart, like that's about as far as I know with my own astrology.
Speaker 3:You're so good with communication.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, mercury is like my dominant planet and it is in my fourth house. So, anyway, when you were talking about late summer and abundance, and then Vanessa bringing up like Gaia as a being that nourishes and nurtures, you know what I think of is like where I live in Northeastern Minnesota, we truly have four seasons. We don't have four equal seasons, like winter is like six months and everything else is like two months each, but we have four seasons and so it's really cool to be able to live in that rhythm of four seasons and there's a definite fall, a definite spring, a definite winter and a definite summer. And so right now, as someone who lives close to land, who grows and forages food and plants, like I'm thinking about how fast paced this time of year is. There, there's almost like a you can feel it in the air. There's this urgency of like we got to get it all in before the snow flies. You know, we got to get all the wood stacked Like I've got. We got to preserve the things, and I know some of that happens in the fall too.
Speaker 2:But really, starting in this late summer time, for me, my body is already starting to shift into fall. That freeze metal element is already starting for me and it's I'm already seeing it in my life, even in my surroundings. But you know, even the things that I haven't planted and put work into, I still have an abundance of to go out and get. So think like the berries are crazy right now it's mushroom season.
Speaker 2:If I'm going to forage any more plants or herbs like I've got to do it now before things start turning brown and bending over and losing their potency, right. So it's like it's like the time of year that like I better get it in now, while everything's still potent. And this also sense of like the earth is so generous to give us these things, right, even the things I don't have to work for. The earth is so generous to give me these things and I have to be in check with myself not to take more than I need. And so I feel like with people pleasing people, pleasing people tend to give more than they have, you know, and the earth doesn't really give more than she has, because the earth has these really amazing boundaries built in, not just like thorns on plants or poison in plants or whatever, but also like the fall season of death is a boundary. It says, like you're done harvesting, like this season is over.
Speaker 2:This is it. There's no more berries, there's no more mushrooms, like the fish are swimming deeper down, the animals are going to hibernate, like this is the boundary, this is it. And so then we go into that fall and winter season and that boundary has been set. And the reason why, like, we have to have boundaries? Because boundaries protect resources, right, like boundaries protect resources. So where I live, there's a lot of hunting and fishing and there are limits on how much you can take. Why? Because we don't wanna run out of the resource, right.
Speaker 2:Like there's limits on using water because we don't wanna run out of that resource. There's limits on what you can harvest from the wild because you don't wanna run out of that resource. I have a rule with myself that I don't harvest ghost pipe from my own place because I really, really wanna preserve it. So I go to other places where it's more abundant if I'm gonna harvest it, because my place seems to have more of a boundary around ghost pipe than some other places where it's more abundant. So I don't wanna take where it's not abundant. So I'm also like the book Ishmael for anyone who's never read that book is coming to mind about leavers and takers and sort of like.
Speaker 2:When we are in a people pleasing relationship. If I'm the people pleaser, that really is a transactional relationship, because I am doing this thing that may be out of my integrity, that may be dishonest, that probably isn't authentic, in order to keep you. That's just on it. That's manipulative, that's really sticky, right, and it's sort of like I feel really sticky if I overtake from the earth and then I don't preserve it fast enough and it spoils. I'm like, ooh, I took something that I didn't use it, like I wasn't fully grateful for it, and that's how I feel whenever I people please is like they've taken something from me but they're not fully using it and they're not fully grateful for it and it's just transactional. I'm not getting that nourishment in return. So, yeah, that felt all over the place, but that's what was coming up for all you guys were talking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it doesn't feel all over the place. There's so many little pieces that I feel like we can dive into. I wanna talk about digestion and feeling called to talk about digestion. Vanessa, you brought it up in your medical astrology piece that you were talking about, and in my tradition, the earth element has a lot to do with the stomach and the spleen and all of the other digestive pieces that come around it, and I think that it sort of ties into what you were saying, lindsay, about boundaries and protecting resources and things being transactional, and so I kinda wanna tie those threads together because there's, if we think about the digestive system, we've got the stomach, we've got the small intestine and then the large intestine and the stomach it's almost like this, like receptacle of receiving, and I feel like, with people pleasing, there is this concept, this idea of like I'm gonna absorb everything so that I don't have to feel the discomfort that comes when somebody else feels uncomfortable. And so let me just open mouth, give it all to me, because I feel like I can just digest it all, which is not true. Anyone who's recovering people please, or we'll tell you that there's a limit to that and there is an exhaustion that comes with that and actually like a malnourishment that comes from that. It's like you can't actually be nourished on that like connective level when you're just taking, taking, taking everything in the like in the hopes that you're going to somehow like alchemize all of it right. And so then the next piece down the line is the small intestine. The small intestine's job is to like sort through what's good for me, what's not good for me, and if there's so much coming down the pipeline from the stomach, like the small intestine literally cannot do its job. This is where we start seeing things like SIBO and we start seeing, you know, like small intestinal gut issues and like food sensitivities can come through, because you know there's like literally like the barrier between the small intestine and the body starts breaking down and then pieces of food that isn't supposed to be in the body like starts leaking through and then we get like leaky gut.
Speaker 1:But to me it's like that that piece that you were talking about, lindsay, about boundaries, protect resources Like we need integrity in our ability to say this is good for me, this is not good for me, and being able to let go and pass the stuff that's not good for me down to the large intestine so that you can literally shit it out, is an important part of that process. And when there's so much that you're absorbing and you know, I think people pleasing can also we could talk about that with like martyrdom, like when there's so much coming down the pipeline that you can't even discern, like discernment is such an important part of this conversation. You can't discern what is good to keep and what is not good to keep. We end up with like actually creating a unhealthy immune response within the body, which is literally your body attacking itself.
Speaker 1:Now, right, and so like I feel like the body is just this beautiful metaphor for what we're talking about, which is there's too much coming in, I can't absorb it, the small intestine can't do its work of discernment, then I have leaky gut.
Speaker 1:All this stuff is like leaking into my body. My immune system starts attacking itself, which I mean we can translate that into the self attacks that we do and sort of the shame piece that you were talking about, lindsay, of like after the fact, when I have people, please, it doesn't feel good. And now I go down this like shame spiral of like attacking myself as like why didn't I do that? Why didn't I hold better boundaries, why didn't? We can sort of go down those rabbit holes, and so I think it's. I mean, I'm always saying that the body is the storyteller of our lives and I think in this conversation in particular, when it comes to people pleasing, your body is going to tell you hey, that doesn't feel good. And I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of times, people who are earthy I'm gonna put that in like quotation marks people who are earthy, tend to have like gut issues.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 3:Well, I can absolutely relate to that. Growing up, I had chronic digestive issues, chronic acid reflux, like so many problems digestively that, and which is part of the reason why when I first got into healthcare as a vocation which really was stemmed from my mom and her journey with breast cancer that's like a whole nother story. But it was also because we both had similar symptoms. She had got issues her entire life as well, and we had similar patterns too of taking on, taking on, taking on, taking on and not digesting it, like not having not only the capacity to which. Then, of course, your body finds out a way like our bodies are always trying to heal right, our bodies are always trying to heal. So when we are experiencing these symptoms, in my opinion, it's quite literally our bodies trying to survive and finding some sort of way to create equilibrium, to create like to bring in harmony and which can look like a lot of disharmony along the way right with our symptoms. And so a lot of that I realized was because of these patterns, and that was also inherited, ancestral patterns, because I see this in my maternal line and like we see this in a lot of other ways, like our bodies, I think, express this in many other ways too. So if I just want to speak to people who are like, well, I don't have any digestive issues or I never have, I just want to speak to the fact that all of our bodies express it different, in different ways. So it may not be just the stomach or digestive system, but just pay attention to your body, start a conversation with your body and ask, like, what would you like me to know? You know about this pain in my back or this headache that won't go away, that's chronic. Like what is this related to? Because even just asking the question, if you don't hear it right away, there will be a response in some way and we just have to be persistent in our conversation and relating with our bodies.
Speaker 3:But that's how I came into awareness around the energy piece and the giving away of my power and the self-abandonment is actually through working on my digestive issues and it's really hard. Also, you know, I'm not saying that that's always the root of your digestive issues, right, but I think a lot of times it can be hard to come to the not just awareness but like an acceptance that I contributed to this. You know, it's not about self-blaming, but it's like how my part of my behavior has contributed to how I'm feeling and my body, and it's not anyone's fault. Inherently, obviously, we live in a like pretty wacko society that has contributed a lot to these types of patterns, but I still think it's important to get really honest with yourself so that you are open to seeing all the ways that we have self-abandoned. It's really hard to acknowledge that. Yeah, I just self-abandoned myself in this moment and I think the more that we persist in dishonesty then like the longer we're gonna stay in these patterns. So part of it is about getting real about that too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's good stuff. That's really good, Kat. The thing I'm wondering is because you are a much more of an element expert in this elemental thing and Taoist philosophy and all that than I am. So you use the word discernment earlier and about being able to sort Like here's what I can digest, here's what I can't digest, here's what's good for me, here's what's not good for me, which this podcast will publish before the one about perfectionism. But we talked a lot about like that discernment and that sorting when we talked about perfectionism.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And that metal element piece. And I think I know enough about Taoist philosophy to know that there's probably not like okay, on this date late summer starts and on this date late summer ends, and on this date fall begins and on this date fall, like, I mean maybe it does go off of, like this Ulstice and equinox or something like that. But I'm guessing that it's kind of a loose, open for translation or interpretation kind of thing. And so in my work with the nervous system, like what I perceive about people, or my understanding of people, is that when I am able to maintain and channel my flight and fight responses so if I'm channeling a fight response of anger, like I'm able to assert myself and set boundaries. If I'm channeling a flight response of perseverance, I'm able to be industrious and like make it through difficult things.
Speaker 2:When I get into that like unintegrated judgment, that's when I don't know what's for me and what's not for me and what's my responsibility and what's not my responsibility and all of that.
Speaker 2:So I find that people are more likely to operate in spaces of people pleasing, fawning, generally when their nervous systems are in a more collapsed state, whether that's freeze or collapse. Because if I'm able to hold and channel the energy of anger, then I'm much less likely to people please, because then I have access to my boundaries and I have access to that like no, I'm not taking that on, that's not mine. If I have access to my flight response, for example, I'm more likely to be able to be like no, I'm not gonna stay in this situation where this is expected of me, like absolutely not. But when I'm in that space of unintegrated judgment and unintegrated shame, it's like the lines get very, very blurry and I don't know what I'm supposed to do. And so what I do is I look outside of myself and I go, oh, that's what they want me to do, okay, that's what I'll do, but it's not authentic, right?
Speaker 2:And so then I stay in that more freeze or shutdown state and I can't rise up to hold my own boundaries or to know when I need to get out.
Speaker 1:So I do feel little pieces of that metal element in here too, Absolutely yeah, absolutely, and this is A why I love having conversations with you, lindsay, is because you make me sort of like push up against, like even the things that I say and like okay. So is there more nuance? Is there like let's poke holes in this, like that's, those are my favorite kinds of relationships, is like when we get to poke holes in each other's thoughts and theories and work through it, right? So, like, discernment, as you're sort of describing it in this moment, is like I wish that we could put all these qualities into these like tight little boxes. That's like this is what we experience in spring and wood element, this is what we experience in the fire. And to me, like we can't talk about discernment without talking about the metal element, because there's like with the metal element, there's like an integrity piece, there's an aspect of like this is what is true for me, what is like valuable from you, and those are all sort of like medley qualities and it's going to sort of express itself differently through all the different sort of ways, right, and so if we're talking about, if you want to pair up discernment plus wood element and spring season, it's like okay.
Speaker 1:So discernment can look like anger, like appropriate anger to hold a boundary. You know you want to talk about discernment and the fire element and the summer season. It can look like okay. So what brings me joy, what is like? What am I passionate about, and is it okay for me to just do the thing that I'm passionate about? You know, we're talking about it here in the late summer and we're talking about it in terms of discernment around how much to give and how much to receive.
Speaker 1:You know, we can talk about it in the wintertime in terms of, like, what resources do I use and what resources do I continue to save, and so, like, discernment, I feel like touches every single one of these energies in a way that's quite nuanced and different in each one. So, yeah, I love that you and through it all, I feel like and this is me just saying it out loud, not having like actually flushed it out and like poke holes in it myself Like it feels like there's like a piece of metal that gets sort of like moved through all of them. Like metal seems to be the piece that like like at a certain point. It does have to be black and white, right, it does have to be sort of like a cutting sort of energy of like yes and no, which is the wisdom and the beauty of metal.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and I love like I study Pete Walker's work on complex PTSD a lot and one of the reasons I love what he writes about the different trauma responses is that none of our trauma responses, none of our activated or immobilized states, are inherently good or bad.
Speaker 2:And like that's whenever I was back in my food blogger days, when people were just starting to talk about the nervous system, they were like it's good to be in parasympathetic mode because then you're in rest and digest and feed and breed, and it's bad if you're in fight.
Speaker 2:Fight and like I understand what they're saying, but it's so much more nuanced than that because it's like you're actually in parasympathetic mode when you're in a collapsed state, like that's a dorsal, vagal, parasympathetic state, so it's not actually feed and breed and rest and digest all the time, right. Similarly, like you know, a lot of people have stories around anger when they didn't see healthy anger modeled, and so their story is if I'm angry then I will be bad like that. So I don't want to be bad like that, so I can't be angry, because that's the only example of anger I've ever seen. So these little judgments about all of our emotions or these like black and white statements about our nervous system states being good or bad or whatever, like it really is so much more complex than that. And in Pete Walker's work he talks about like the healthy characteristics of each response. And so, like the healthy characteristic of anger is, it gives me the energy I need to set boundaries, assert myself, have courage, leadership, motivation to get things done, et cetera.
Speaker 2:And he talks about a healthy font response as well and I don't feel like people talk about the fact that there is actually a healthy font response and Vanessa alluded to before we even hit record, which is, if my baby wakes up during this, I'm gonna have to pause this and I'm gonna have to go nurse so that he can get back to bed. That is actually a healthy font response. That's putting your son's needs ahead of your own, and that is necessary, right?
Speaker 3:That's necessary.
Speaker 2:So parenting is where we see, like, the healthy font response the most, but also acts of service like caretaking, showing up for people whenever they're going through a hard time and supporting them through that Like that's a healthy font response. But guess what? The difference between an unhealthy font response and a healthy font response is that one is resourced and one is not, and so like, or one should be resourced. I definitely know that mothers of toddlers are not always resourced. Okay, but like I'm guessing that Vanessa has structured her life Maybe I'm wrong, but in ways that like you've had to have boundaries around other things so that you have the resources for your son, right. So again, you've had that discernment to know this is my priority in this season. These things are not my priority in this season, because I need this energy to give to my son. So I just wanted to speak to that healthy font response of like it's not bad.
Speaker 2:If you want to caretake for people. It's not bad If you need to put aside your own needs to go prioritize something else. It's when we're doing this from a chronic, unaware, unre sourced state that we then start depleting ourselves and then we feel resentful or we feel like we do go into shut down. We go depression, anxiety like, and our bodies are like, hey, this is not sustainable for me. You're taking and taking and taking from yourself and you're not getting anything back. So I just wanted to speak to like the difference between that. And it's not always bad to font something necessary. But are you resourced? And again, they resourced by having boundaries and you need anger healthy anger to have those boundaries. So there's so much overlap and crisscrossing and like no boxes, but I've got to speak yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, like this you shared so many juicy bits there and a lot of it what it comes down to for me, like in my experience when I'm taking it in and I'm really feeling it, is the discernment. Like discernment, not like knowing yourself, knowing the difference between what is a healthy font response for myself. What does that look like versus going into old patterns that I thought were normal and maybe healthy or good because, like, it's coming from a place of altruism or whatever it may be, and it isn't because I wasn't resourced or because, like, the exchange wasn't fair. Like these, we need to have this reciprocity in relating and if you're not getting that in a way that nourishes you, that supports in your resourcing, then there's something that needs to shift there. And speaking of shift and discernment, like coming back to Kat, what you were talking about with, like how it's quite literally shape shifting throughout the seasons and how we can see all of these different elements woven in to this particular topic.
Speaker 3:I think that's also a quality of a lot of people who are fall under this umbrella of people pleasers is shape shifting.
Speaker 3:It's like coming into a situation and shaping yourself to fit into a certain box or a context or I know as a kid it was shape shifting myself so that I would fit in into different groups, so learning how to speak even in different ways or dress differently, so that you seamlessly are moving with like the flow, versus bringing in contrast or conflict, which is something that I always tried to avoid, and like people pleasing was one of the methods that I did that and one of the things that like as a chronic shape shifter.
Speaker 3:Now there's, of course, beauty with shape shifting because then you can quite literally enter into like all different types of situations and be really adaptable, right, and be able to like have conversations, different kinds of conversations. But then the danger with that is losing your sense of self and not quite literally not knowing who you are, and then I think that it's impossible to set up boundaries from that space because you no longer have the discernment of what is self and what is not self, and then that kind of comes back to the whole auto-immunity piece, even right, like with our immune response and self versus not self. So there's so much like integrated there and everything that you guys are talking about. Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1:I love that. And I wanna go back to what you were sharing, lindsay, about that healthy, fond response, because I think that as you were speaking, vanessa, like the little pieces were sort of coming together. For me is a healthy, fond response is when there's discernment and sort of you were talking about how, like you have a sense of who you are instead of like shape shifting, and to me that speaks to healthy compromise and like healthy compromise is so necessary in relationships, both personal and in business, and for me I can just share a quick little story about how this actually came up fairly recently for me and my husband is he has always turned to food as like comfort, like that's been like the place that he has been able to find control in his life, and so right now he's at a weight that he's not very happy with, and he started a new job and so he's not able to move as much as he's like used to as well. And so he came to me this was a couple of weeks ago and was like I really need to put some like really strong limits on like what I'm eating, and he came up with a list of like these are the things that I want to eat and these are the things that I don't want to eat. And so can we like, can we do that so that, like I can start getting some of this weight off?
Speaker 1:And I went immediately into sort of like my wounded self, which is like I've lived a lot of my life in a very structured no gluten, no this, no that, like very like I went down I mean, you talk about Lindsay, like the health anxiety piece, like I've lived that and a lot of my journey back is has been about okay, so what do I want to eat now and how can that be nourishing now and not putting any limits on things and understanding that my body has certain cravings and being okay with all those different cravings and sort of being in a state of acceptance. And so then I went down my own sort of like triggered state of like. No, you start putting controls on food and I freak out, right, and my husband is a pretty like emotionally like he's like pretty solid, like he doesn't really fluctuate and get dysregulated as often as I do, and I watched him in his like this is his like thing and he got really dysregulated about it and started going down this path of, like, I don't feel supported. I feel like you know, I really wanna do this for my own health. So, like, can you please like support me in this?
Speaker 1:And I took a step back and I started realizing, like, do I still feel dysregulated about controls around food? No, and so, in my healthy resource state, can I be more flexible about where he needs to put controls on his food so that he feels supported in that you know and you know. And so then there was, like, this opportunity for us to come to this healthy compromise and we came up with a plan that works for both of us, where, like, he handles like, breakfast and lunch for himself and he's very controlled with those two meals, and then I cook dinner for us and I get to cook whatever it is that I want to cook. And so, like, like, that healthy compromise is so necessary when it comes to this like healthy fund response that you're talking about.
Speaker 1:You know it's also shown up in a business relationship recently where I had a client who, like had some life stuff come up, needed to like cancel a bunch of appointments. She did give me some advanced notice but then, like, usually my containers are six months long and you know, like she would have had all these sessions that were like gone beyond the six months, and so she and I came up with a plan of like you know you couldn't control the life stuff that happened. You know I'm going to put an extension on the amount of time that we can be in this container and it's going to move beyond the usual six months that I do and for me, like that came from a healthy place of resourcing and being able to be flexible and, you know, be discerning about like there's still a boundary, there's still a limit, but you know, given the context of what these things are, like I can be the flexible one and it doesn't feel like it's coming from a people pleasing place, even though I am being the more flexible one.
Speaker 2:I have a similar story. Actually, we all have a shape-shifting story and an adaptability story. It's so great. So I come from an evangelical Christian background, have been out of that for like nine years now, but my husband's parents are still very, very, very evangelical Christian. His entire family is His dad just retired from like a 50 year career in full-time ministry In Baptist churches in the Bible belt in the South like super Christian okay, and they know that we're not Christians anymore, but it's never been something that we've openly talked about.
Speaker 2:My husband's family doesn't like to talk about uncomfortable things. They would rather like shove things under the rug and pretend like everything's fine and let's just all smile and get along while we're together. And so whenever they would come to visit, I would always be like I feel so inauthentic, like they're over here talking about God and Jesus and the Bible and prayer and what all the things that are happening in their church and I'm just like twiddling my thumbs and like inwardly rolling my eyes, you know, and feeling like I can't really participate in this conversation because it doesn't feel true for me anymore. And this last time that they visited, which was back in May, they had not been here because of COVID and other things. They had not been here to see us for five years and so they came and visited and I noticed how easily it was for me, or how easy it was for me to like code switch and I know code switching is something that's like a people pleasing, fawning kind of thing for people and like, but I didn't feel like I was people pleasing and fawning. I felt like this is the most authentic way I can have a conversation with these people is to use their language and I'm using it in a way that doesn't feel dishonest for me. Like I don't usually use the term God to talk about like my higher power. I usually use like universe or source or self energy or something they definitely still use God and Jesus.
Speaker 2:But during the week they were here, I was able to code switch about like the things that God is doing in my life and it didn't feel like I was being really dishonest. It felt like this is a kind thing that I can do to be adaptable to them so that we can have connection, and that felt. It felt very sovereign, it felt very self responsible. It felt like I was using my agency. I didn't feel like I was fawning and people pleasing and trying to fit in and find belonging and acceptance and all of that. It just felt like, oh, okay, this is like an easy thing I can do to make connection possible between us in a way that it hasn't been for quite some time. And so, yeah, I think when you've done a lot of this like self-awareness work around this, you can bring back in some of the nuance.
Speaker 2:But I think in the beginning of anything, you kind of do have to be a little bit hardcore about it. Like with this self abandonment thing for me, like right now I'm in a space of like okay, I've sat with this, I've repeated this pattern again and again, and again I've cried about it, I've had anxiety about it, I've talked to my friends about it, I've talked to Kat about it. Like I've done all these things, okay, like I now need a really hard line with myself because I'm still not catching myself in the moment. And so it's like those boundaries were kind of loose and I was able to sort of be like okay, I'm giving myself some space to figure this out and it's okay if it takes me some time. But now I'm like I just self abandoned in a relationship again last week and I felt like shit and it's like my body is like this is not acceptable anymore. This people pleasing and rolling over and not speaking up for yourself it doesn't work anymore. So now my boundaries with myself are having to get a little bit more rigid and more structured, because I really want to heal this pattern of not being authentic in these relationships with people who I very much love and am committed to. But when I self abandon, I'm being dishonest in the relationship and that creates stress on me but also on the relationship energetically.
Speaker 2:So anyway, I just wanted to share that as kind of like another way to be like, yeah, it is actually possible to come into a space of like oh sure, I can code switch if that makes you more comfortable or if that makes connection more possible.
Speaker 2:Or like you need me to do this thing that you don't want to do? Okay, fine, it's temporary, I can deal with that. But I think at first, when, if you're very first coming out of a people pleasing pattern, you don't know how to discern that yet, right. So it's like you may need to have more rigid boundaries with yourself where it's like it's a fuck no every time. But then eventually you get to a space where you're like, okay, it doesn't have to be a fuck, no anymore, because I don't have the activation around people pleasing that I used to have, just like you don't have the activation around restricting food that you use to have. So I think we do come to a more integrated place with it. But at first it may really be that we have to have a hard line with ourselves in terms of our boundaries, because, again, those boundaries are actually protecting our resources.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I totally agree with that. I also experienced that too, and especially with religion to. My family comes from more of a Catholic background. But I left the church one day as a teenager because of something that the priest said that like my face turned red and my mom saw and told me do not say anything. You know, like do not get up and say anything in church because I was about to blow up and the stifling like I couldn't take it and I was like, well, if I can't, like that is abandoning myself, if I cannot stick up for others say something, and I'm like literally seething what's happening in my body. So I decided not to go back. I've come a long way where I can also code switch. I'm not activated by that.
Speaker 3:I use God Like I have a different relationship in that way and I absolutely agree that you have to go through your own journey right and have those hard lines, because they teach you their teachers and we need sometimes those really strong boundaries to work through all the shit that's there Like we need that container. It can't be as open. And then they're like what you were speaking into with the healthy compromise cat. One thing that has really come up with me around, that is, it takes two or more Like. If it's you and like a group, right, it's not just you.
Speaker 3:It requires, on the other end of that attempt for healthy compromise, there has to be a meeting, and so if that is not happening, then that's when you also have to set up those boundaries too, because you may try and it's not being met, then that is not being honored, that's not being, that's not coming from a resource space and, as hard as that experience can be, that's you have to decide to Support yourself. Ultimately right. Which and that's, I think, that's probably the most challenging piece when you're in recovery, or you're like an active people pleasing. When you're presented with that and you're like but I'm trying, like I'm really trying, and and you have to choose yourself, which I think for people pleaser, feels like how, like that does not feel good either, because a lot of us have we want to give, give, give right. So it's not a perfect to the lead out like step one, step to right.
Speaker 3:It's like this dance where you have to really experience that there's no other way but to go through.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, and for me, the the Like, having those more rigid boundaries, like again and also speaking up for myself in the moment, like the theme here, what I'm uncovering in myself is the theme is is unintegrated anger. It's like I need anger to set boundaries, I need anger to say no, I need anger to focus on myself. But that doesn't mean I'm like yelling like a crazy person and being violent and aggressive, right, like, but. But sometimes it does Like, but sometimes it does, especially when I've had so much repressed anger and suppressed anger like I've consciously suppressed anger to avoid conflict or embarrassing somebody or, you know, wrong audience or whatever. But it's really learning how to like. When that energy of anger comes through, because it's fast, it's like can I, can I jump on this wave and write it with grace, like a surfer on a wave, or am I going to like, get all like wobbly and and I'm going to crash because I haven't figured out how to ride this wave yet. And so that's the thing I've been working on in myself.
Speaker 2:When it comes to self abandoning and people pleasing and fawning in intimate relationships is like the other day my best friend was over for dinner and we had some music playing and the Otis Redding song where he like repeats I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know and it just like goes on and on and on forever. Like it felt like sandpaper on my skin to hear that and so I was like I can't handle this song anymore. And I got up and I went and changed it and my best friend was like, but I love Otis Redding, I love that song, like what's wrong with that song? And this is one of the relationships that I'm working on, not self abandoning in. And so I noticed my initial urge to go back and press play again and to completely like, not even do or honor myself.
Speaker 2:But instead I sat down at the table and I went well, it's my house, it's my music, this is what we're listening to. And then afterwards I was like, okay, how did that feel? Like was that okay? And she kind of gave me a funny look. But then we went on and it was fine. And then we talked about it later and she didn't have any problem with that and she acknowledged that sometimes she can be finicky about music too and it wasn't a big deal. But like that was literally me in that moment, practicing with that energy of anger and maybe not quite getting it right, because I'm still learning how to ride that wave in the moment.
Speaker 2:And so like I recently had someone send me a DM on Instagram and they're like, I'm really loving this, like soft, gentle energy that I'm sensing from you lately, like before you did set some things and said some things and posted some videos that scared me, like you were intense and I'm really liking this gentler, more nuanced version of you. And of course, I'm like, okay, isn't that interesting? Because I actually do perceive myself to be pretty nuanced and gentle. But okay, I can see how some of the things I've posted may come across as harsh or hard or like whatever. And then I began to sit with, like how do I feel that other people perceive me as harsh or hard, even when I don't perceive myself that way? Like, what does that feel like?
Speaker 2:And can I believe myself but also still take their feedback as like, oh, isn't that interesting? You know that doesn't mean I have to change something right away about myself, but it's like I can hold on to that and I can see if it starts showing up in other ways. And then, as I got, even these are the internal conversations I have. I'm sure you guys have these internal conversations with yourself where you like, have 10 voices at once having a discussion and eventually you get to the self part, but you got to go through all the other parts before you get around table.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you got to go all the way around the circle with all the kids on the bus, right? So. So, anyway, I was like, what is it about this that bothers me? That that she said that I was intimidating and my, I felt harsh and hard, like. And then I realized, because I have a judgment about that, like, I have judgment, and so what if I didn't have judgment about that? Would it be okay if I was harsh and hard with my boundaries? Like, is that bad actually? Or do I just have a judgment about it because I am a people pleaser and don't want people to perceive me that way, right? So, going into, like, playing in the realms of like, okay, so what if my boundaries are hard right now? Can that be okay? Like, can that be a season where I need to just have some hard boundaries and then eventually that season shifts and my boundaries can be a little looser, like, can I have a season of darkness? What if? What if that wasn't bad? Right, like, so I don't know just these interesting conversations with myself about how other people perceive me, because ultimately I don't want you to be disappointed in me, because then you might abandon me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, but David and I were watching a YouTube video with Gabor Maté last night and people ask me all the time do you read Gabor Maté's books, do you follow him or whatever? I've literally never read a single one of Gabor Maté's books. I've seen him in one documentary and I loved everything he said, but I didn't like go start following him and reading everything he did. So we're watching this documentary last night and Gabor Maté is talking and he was talking about how you know, as children, we have two needs attachment and authenticity. And 100% of the time as a child as a child it's not even really a choice we will go for the attachment over our own authenticity and so we will suppress and repress desires and emotions, boundaries, needs, wants. Like we'll suppress and repress all those things because our survival depends on that attachment relationship. Yeah, and so that, I think, is what we see playing out in people.
Speaker 2:Pleasing is it's people, adults now, who can choose authenticity. They just don't know it because they're so used to choosing attachment but they don't need that. Like I don't need attachment with strangers on the internet. So like it really is okay for me to choose my authenticity in that moment, like I can handle it if people and follow me and they do. There are very there's like three relationships for relationships now that I really need that attachment with, and and also I can be authentic in those relationships and that's the best of both worlds. But I'm at a space in my life now where it's like, if I can't have this attachment and this authenticity, I'm going to choose the authenticity over the attachment and like that doesn't mean I won't be your friend, but it means that it's not going to be as intimate as the people that I want attachment and authenticity with.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I mean I can even use like an example of, like you're, my relationship to you, lindsay, because like I think that early on in relationships it's important to maybe hold a stronger boundary around your authenticity and then you can sort of play with like that healthy compromise and that healthy discernment as trust gets built over time. But Lindsay and I, we've been internet friends for I don't even know how long.
Speaker 3:At least two years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we've been like we hang out and we do like friend things, and you know, it finally came to a time when we were like, should we hang out in person? Like can we do this? And we started like talking through, like do we want to meet in Mexico? It was. This was like over the wintertime, and I can't remember exactly what your texts that are, I don't know if you remember, but like it was something along the lines of like, like, like I'm cool with whatever you choose, like, and it felt very like like I can take this or I can leave. It is my perception of it, you know, and so we're we're trying to figure out an Airbnb, you know, and I'm like, should we do it this way? Should we do it that way?
Speaker 1:We're like working through a lot of these logistics, and your response to a lot of these logistics was like I don't really care, and I took that as like you don't care about hanging out with me, and so I had to stand in my authenticity and be like you know what? I have a lot of friendships in my life and that's part of my sort of like friend wound is I give so much in friendships and I'm always the one who travels to people. I'm always the one who, like, like makes my life inconvenient to go and go support my friends, and there's, like there's a lot of like people placing in those types of dynamics that I'm actively working through. And so, early on in my relationship with you, I like sent you a text message and was like hey, like, I've loved our connection and this feels really important for me to name.
Speaker 1:The way that I perceived that message was that you don't really care about hanging out with me and I'm not in a place right now, like, where I'm willing to have people in my life who are just like, I'll take your leave. You and you responded in such a secure way that helped me feel like I can actually trust this dynamic. Like you clarified, it's not about, like, I want to hang out with you, I just don't care where we hang out. Like, can we please hang out you?
Speaker 2:know, and that was hanging out with you. Anywhere, I really don't care, I just want to hang out.
Speaker 1:And so like to me, like that was an important piece for me, to like stand in my authenticity, hold my boundary of like okay, I'm getting a flavor of like she doesn't care, so let me poke into that and like if it's a no then it's a no and that I have to be okay with that. You know I can't be so attached to this attachment piece that you're talking about attachment or authenticity. You know I can't be so attached to the attachment to Lindsay that I then lose my own authenticity and can't feel resourced and get another friendship.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, absolutely, and and I'm so glad that you asked, because so many people won't ask right, like that's. This is the thing that I try to do with my clients all the time is they're like, well, this happened and I felt like this, and then it was shitty and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like okay, did you speak up for yourself? Did you say something? They're like no, I'm like, well, you're just making a bunch of assumptions and projections, like you don't know that that's actually true. It's just how you're perceiving it, based on your own unique wounds, and that's fine. That's not bad. Of course you're perceiving it that way, but if you don't actually use your voice and say, hey, when you said this, here's what I heard or here's how I felt about it, is this true, is that real, is that actually?
Speaker 2:What's happening and that is a huge piece of us needing to take responsibility for ourselves is actually understanding and being aware of what our own projections and assumptions and our places that get poked right that we don't even realize is being an awareness of that and being like okay, right now I'm feeling a similar way to how I felt in relationships in the past, but I have the resources within myself to ask Lindsay like hey, I don't actually want to invest in this if you don't care, like I want you to care. And then I was able to clarify like you're picking up on me, not caring about what we do or where we go. You're not picking up on me, not caring about you. So, like again, not using your voice and speaking up piece is so, so important and it's such a responsibility that we have.
Speaker 1:But when you're in that freeze or collapse state, that's almost impossible to do and I don't think I'd contextualize it at the time, but like that's actually a healthy expression of anger. You know, like I had to tap into the anger that I felt in past relationships. I project that onto you, but like I needed the anger to mobilize my ability to like act, you know, and so I think that this is like an important piece, is like we don't want to numb out any of the emotions, because you may need to like, you may need to rely on a subtle version of an anger that has been repressed for you to like move through, like to actually like to find connection.
Speaker 2:So I'm so, I'm curious Did you at all notice if your nervous system was like wanting to collapse around that? Oh for sure.
Speaker 1:Oh for sure, yeah, absolutely Sorry, vanessa, did I interrupt you?
Speaker 3:No, well, my question was kind of along those lines, because I'm listening as like a listener and I'm just tuning in and hearing, like anyone listening who's like how do you get to that place? How do you get to that place from dysregulation, not even being able to step into that place where you're utilizing your anger in a healthy way or that, even like realizing that it is anger and that you do want to express? And here's a way that you could express and finding the words right, like what are the steps that you had to take, cat, for example, in that process? What was maybe the work that you have done as a background to get to that place, to be able to do that Like because you said you have a history of that experience within your friend group. I guess any sharing that might be helpful. I mean both for me, let's be honest, but also for listeners who I'm feeling or like how do you do that?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I get asked that all the time, vanessa, yeah, how do you do that? How do you say that in the moment?
Speaker 1:Totally, yeah, I will say that like this is coming off of. So Lindsay and I were talking about like meeting in Mexico over the winter the last year. Before that I had a major falling out with like someone I considered to be my best friend and like. It all sort of revolved around people pleasing. It all revolved around her asking me to meet her needs, make her feel safe and abandon what felt logical and safe to me in my own authenticity. It was all centered around COVID and the vaccine, and so I know that there's been a lot of upheaval in terms of like people perhaps experiencing this on the backside of the pandemic of like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I had to ride a very uncomfortable, shaky wave before I had had that conversation with Lindsay and I found that, even though that wave was shaky and I experienced a lot of like, actually appropriate anger in that relationship, I needed to hold like a really, really strong boundary in that dynamic. Otherwise I was going to keep abandoning myself in that relationship. That friend and I are no longer friends, but to me it was so important that I hold myself to my own integrity and hold to my own truth that it felt important. Not that I like. Of course I miss her. There's like aspects of our relationship that I absolutely miss.
Speaker 1:But if connection is going to be based on that transaction of me needing to meet her needs and me needing to do things the way that she does things, then that's not a relationship dynamic that I'm interested in.
Speaker 1:And so, like I think that you may need to hold a more rigid boundary than you're comfortable with to find the nuance. And for me to find the nuance with Lindsay, I had to sort of like I think I took like a day or two before I responded to you. Like I remember like receiving that message and then being like okay, so like I'm feeling this, can I sit with it, can I be with it? Essentially, like what it came down to is like this is a story that's playing out in my head and I need to like have that confirmed or de-confirmed, you know, and it's early enough in the friendship where, like not that I didn't care, like of course, I was like really attached to, like wanting to be your friend, but like like it would be less of a loss than the loss I had just experienced, like a few months prior.
Speaker 1:And so I'd had a little bit of practice with that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes total sense. I'm really glad that you felt safe to ask me that question and to get clarification Me too, but I'll also have to say, too, that it like that safety was me.
Speaker 1:That wasn't you Like. I think that that's important for listeners to hear too is like the safety was like. Even if you were an unsafe person, I would have still needed to go through the exercise of like feeling the feelings and saying the thing and moving through that.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and I think that's the process that a lot of people don't want to go through, because that's a really uncomfortable process. Like it's really uncomfortable to sit with those old stories and see how they're playing out again and to sit with, like I really want to communicate about this, but at the same time, I really don't, like I really don't want to bring this up. I don't, I don't want to be the one who brings it up. My, one of my patterns and intimate relationships is that the other person has stressed out I'll kind of eat my words because I don't want to add to their stress, right? So it's like I'll put my needs on the back burner because I don't want to stress them out more, and so I mean, self-awareness is like the most important piece of this equation. I think so. To answer your question, vanessa, about like how do you do this? How do you communicate? Like this in relationships is it's like you got to have enough self-awareness first to know, like here's what I'm feeling, here's why I'm feeling it, here's where I felt this before, here's how this pattern usually plays out, here's what I want to do differently. What choices do I need to make in order for that different outcome to happen what's within my control, what's not within my control? Like there's so much complexity but it really comes down to like having self-awareness and then again, choosing self over attachment. And, just like me, choosing my connection with myself and with my authenticity has to be more important than this need that I have to be someone's friend, and that doesn't mean I don't need connection and co-regulation, like we all do, right, but our like I'm just spinning around over here in my orbit and Kat's spinning around in her orbit and Vanessa's spinning around in her orbit, and sometimes we bump up against each other. And we don't mean to bump up against each other, but it's like every time we bump up against each other it's an opportunity for, like, even greater self-awareness and it's an opportunity for more intimacy in the relationship.
Speaker 2:Like that's the thing that I feel like I've done really, really well in my personal life is I don't have many friends, but the friends I do have in real life are like ride or die. We have a zombie apocalypse plan together. Like we're very committed to each other. Like my best friend in real life she's my platonic life partner. Like I am committed to that relationship. I am just as committed to that relationship, as I am, my marriage, and so I voice that commitment, like I regularly tell her you're important to me, I love you, this relationship is important to me, and so when we have that love and that trust established, then when we do have a conflict, it's not quite as scary, because that love and that trust isn't something that I had established with my parents, for example, or with the church, for example, like.
Speaker 2:So it's like I have to be able to also discern here's the past pattern and here's what's happening right now, and like I don't have to get lost in the old story because I can actually see that what's playing out now is different, because this is a different person. I'm a different person, I'm more resourced. But really at the end of the day like I know Kat doesn't like the phrase feel the fear and do it anyway. But sometimes at the end of the day I have to just like feel the fear and just say the fucking thing anyway, or I'm not going to sleep at night and I will have shitloads of anxiety, which I did this past week while I was waiting two days to talk to my friend because I self abandoned and it wasn't her fault that I self abandoned.
Speaker 2:Again. It was my, my thing, right. So so much practice. People have to have a willingness to try. And there's people perfectionists are so afraid they're going to get it wrong that they don't even want to try. Right People blazers probably do because they don't want to be abandoned, yeah, and I think can I ask that question of you, Vanessa?
Speaker 1:Oh, like turn the question around that you asked of me, Like how, how do you move through?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Well, I mean, I see myself reflected in a lot of what both of you had said in terms of practice, practice, practice, like, just like needing well, the awareness, looking back, a lot of reflection, of looking back at the patterns, being able to recognize patterns so that you know when it's happening in the moment, noticing, like, connecting with my body, what's my body doing, what are the patterns that are showing up in my body. And even if I like self-abandoned in the moment, like you were saying, lindsay, to reflect, to be with my body around that and like I think it's a very natural thing for people, this like happens right where you always think about why should I said this? Or I could have said this, like, why couldn't I have done it in the moment? Well, that's because you were dysregulated and you literally could not do it in the moment, right, and so being able to like even practice through your mind can aesthetically Like not even being in a particular situation. I know that I do that usually at night, when my baby wakes me up in the middle of the night and I'm like let me review the day. My mind just starts going through and yeah, and having I think that embodiment like knowing is really helpful and, like you guys are saying, inching your way even further each time of the discomfort, like getting comfortable with the discomfort. You know, I don't know that I really like that phrase either, but there is a level of like you can increase your capacity to withstand discomfort and I think for many of us.
Speaker 3:I remember, I remember a time when, like speaking my truth to a person who I really cared about when it was in direct conflict, felt like death literally. You know, and you can't, you can't expect yourself to have a nuanced conversation when you're facing death, right, and it's not that it's real, but it is real, like in our bodies, and so, yeah, and I think, just over time and experience, that's that's been mine. Another reflection that I had when you guys were talking and Lindsay, when you were talking about really like it's like secure attachment, right and with God, where my day, when he's talking about young children, is there's. There's some studies out there that show that for most parents, in sort of like a regular mother father type of structure with the toddler, the toddler acts the worst, like their worst behavior is with the mom and most of the time, and what they deduced was that the child felt the safest with mom and so was inhibited, like, didn't, had no inhibitions, had no, didn't, didn't abandon themselves by like changing, shape shifting or whatever, which isn't like. Shape shifting isn't always self abandonment, but like and so and, like you said, lindsay, the child isn't, isn't thinking this process through in the same way that adults does, because they're in a totally different state neurologically and their capacity to move through. So it really is a primal thing.
Speaker 3:So I think, coming back to even like, obviously, our own experiences in childhood, now being a mom, some of the things that I like literally come out of my mouth without me thinking, in reaction to my child, I'm like holy shit, I did not mean that, I never mean that. And where did that come from? That came from my mom, that came from my dad, like that's how I was raised. And then starting to piece together like no wonder I was people pleasing, like no wonder I was afraid of abandonment no one you know. And it's like it's really real and my partner I feel so grateful that both of us can call each other out in the moment. You know where he called me out and he's like I don't, I don't feel comfortable with us saying those things. Please don't say that again. You know, to our child and I said thank you for reflecting that back.
Speaker 3:I don't know why I say that and it came from XYZ and now I'm extra aware. But I needed that reflection and like, literally, unfortunately it was with my son and the experience that pulled it out of me. That it was, it was someplace in my subconscious and so we don't. That's the other thing is like being kind and gentle with yourself, because sometimes it's not about choice, it's about, like survival and quite literally, what's embedded within us and we just have to work with what comes up in those moments where we're reacting from that primal place and and then we have the opportunity to do the work. And I feel like it's not just with parenting. We have a lot of opportunities for that and a lot of different experiences. But that's been, that's been a really wild ride so far of mine. Looking all that, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm really glad you brought that up, vanessa, and like what I'm hearing you say, or like what I'm deducing from what you're saying, is that when you're not in your body or embodied in those instances, then you're less aware and so you're more likely to just like randomly throw out this thing and then you're like, yeah, right, like where did that come from, right? So. So something I've been playing with myself, I taught on it in the last workshop that I taught and I played with it with some clients, because when I self abandon, it's because I dissociate. So I'm now at the place in self abandonment that whenever I do it, I can sense a part of me that's like gone up here and is like looking down and watching but isn't here, and it's like if that part was could come back into my body, then I would have that energy to like say what I need to say. But instead that part is like trying to check out.
Speaker 2:And so I started with myself and also have recommended to some clients like of creating some sort of like Touchpoint with my body to stay embodied. So like for me, I put both of my hands, like as I'm talking to someone, I'll put them on my thighs and like so I don't look weird, I'm not doing anything weird, but I can maintain like awareness of my hands on my thighs and maintain awareness of the conversation at the same time. But it's like a touchpoint with my body so that I'm anchored, so that I don't do the thing where I like come out. Another embodiment touchpoint is like can I be present with my breath while I'm in a conversation or in a conflict? And so it's like creating ways for me to be an awareness stay in my body so that I can be present instead of like checking out and then I self abandon and then I feel the shame later. So maybe that's helpful. All listening, yeah.
Speaker 1:I also, as the two of you are talking, I'm starting to realize that, like the people pleasing pattern is a A mutation of like co regulation gone wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah that's good, and like this piece around, like, like people pleasing, feels like a very relational wound, and so relational wounds, yes, we can do all the self awareness, we can do all the like reflection, we can do all that like self and like self regulation that we can, but ultimately, to heal this particular wound, I feel like there needs to be some dis confirming experiences, where you set a boundary or you say a thing and you have an experience that you aren't expecting, which is why I think it's so important to have safe people in your life.
Speaker 1:You know, and like my husband, is this for me, like he I don't know where, he's never gone to therapy, he's never done.
Speaker 1:Like he's not a personal development guy, Like he's an ex bouncer, now a bus driver, like he's, and he's like the most emotionally like a where person I know and he is often that discomfort me experience for me where I'm like, hey, like that's not okay, and he's like, okay, let's talk about how that's not okay, whereas I'm used to people in my life being like, well, that's not okay for me, you know.
Speaker 1:And so having those dis confirming experiences has helped me become more relationally self safe within myself so that even in situations like Lindsay, being a semi new relationship, I can do a thing that feels really scary and like, no matter how she had responded. I'm glad that she responded the way that she did. No matter how she responded, I was going to still be okay, and so I think that relational wounds are healed in relationships, which is why it's so important to have these safe people in your life who are like, just as Lindsay was saying, have a touchpoint with you, know your body, but also have a touchpoint with like people who you consider to be safe people in your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I had a really beautiful experience like that with my best friend, who I'm talking about. I don't know what the fuck our soul contract is all about, but we are definitely compliment, complimentarily, working out some shit. We actually just had a conversation about that the other day. I was like isn't it interesting that, like I have this behavior and this pattern that I'm trying to work on and you have this behavior and this pattern and they both seem to like compliment one another. Isn't that funny? But this, like I don't know over a year ago or something, we, we had an argument and like the next few days was her daughter's birthday and we hadn't had a chance to like talk and repair after the argument. And that is something like not having immediate closure or resolution is such a trigger for me because when I don't have that immediate closure and resolution, I feel like all my nerves are being like exposed to cold air and graded with sandpaper at the same time, like that's what non resolution feels like. Non closure feels like. So I hadn't had this closure, I hadn't had this resolution.
Speaker 2:I was anxious for those days got to the party. There were a bunch of people at the party, I was chopping an onion in her kitchen and I wasn't really talking because I was so anxious and this was the first time I'd seen her since the conflict and we hadn't had a chance to repair. And so I was chopping an onion in the kitchen and I just started crying and she was the only one in the kitchen with me at that point and she was like Are you okay? And I was like I just have so much anxiety because we haven't had a chance to talk in a few days and we didn't resolve that and it just feels so raw and so tender for me and like I'm just having a really hard time with it. And it was like it was such a beautiful thing I'll probably cry saying it but like I've never had this experience and it was such a. I felt like I reached a developmental milestone or something when I had this experience.
Speaker 2:But she was like can we just agree that we're okay and we still love each other and everything's going to be fine until we can talk? And like just having somebody be like we can do this and we're okay and I still love you and I'm not going to leave you. We just haven't had a chance to talk yet. Like with such a. It was like a warm hug for my nervous system. To just be like this isn't as much of an emergency as I thought.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was a disconfirming experience, because what I'm used to is relationship with my mom, where when things don't have resolution enclosure, it's because she's giving me the silent treatment and I'm not allowed to go to her and ask for resolution and I didn't ever get to hear hey, everything is okay, we're okay, you're okay, I'm okay, we're okay. We just got to get through this thing and then we can talk about it, but we're still okay. Like I never had that. I was 39 years old before I ever had that in relationship. Yeah, but it was such a a repatterning experience you know, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Oh, I think that that's also.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 3:I love your friendship, I know, I think that you get to meet her when you come there. That's a great modeling too, because I feel like people don't you know, they'll say well, I want, I want the connection, I want it to feel okay. What do I say to make that happen? You know, and I think you just modeled that. Yes.
Speaker 3:Like people literally don't have the words, you know, and so thank you for sharing it.
Speaker 3:That was really beautiful, yeah, and I was also feeling the like, the silent treatment.
Speaker 3:My mom maybe it's a generational thing too like not being able to like go there, you know, especially with your own children, because I wasn't able to with my mom and there were many instances where I was the one that was persistently reaching out, trying to talk through something and getting a wall, and it's like it's the hardest thing and I feel like maybe many people listening have that experience, whether it was, you know, your caretaker or another loved one. But I would say just to not stop, you know, like, just because that person I mean I still continued into my adulthood until my mom passed like finally in her later years, like finally was able to start to open up, but it took her to come into a chronic illness and a state that was closer to death, like that. It took that to get there. And she's a woman who, like she did not mince, with mince words, like she was very direct, but when it came to intimacy it was very challenging, especially when it was with her daughters.
Speaker 2:So, anyway, I feel you so deeply and for everybody listening, yeah, I mean the whole reason I ever people pleased was because that that was how I learned, when my mom was being passive, aggressive and giving me the silent treatment and like I was using all of my energy to be like is everything okay? Did I do something wrong? Like can I help? What can I do? Like trying to figure out, like how can I fix this for you, because I don't like the way this feels for me right?
Speaker 2:Like like you didn't even say anything to me, but I can sense the energy and I'm like I know something's not right here. I just don't know what it is. So what did I? Assume I've done something wrong. I'm the problem here. She wouldn't be acting this way towards me if I hadn't done something wrong. And so when she wouldn't speak to me and she wouldn't answer me, well, like that wasn't working. So then what did I do? I would go clean the house, I would go do the dishes. I would like, reorganize the decorations on the mantle and try to make it prettier than what it was Like. I would do all these things and eventually I would earn her attachment back. But that's, that's how I like people. Pleasing for me is currency. It's how I buy back my relationship with you. It's how I buy back attachment. That fucking sucks.
Speaker 1:And that's why you use the word transactional earlier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's how I buy back relationship. I have to earn my way back. I have to earn your love back. I have to earn your attention back. I have to perform and do all these things and maybe that'll work. But not every time, but maybe.
Speaker 1:And then that becomes like such an inconsistent feedback loop. And my mom wasn't like that, but my dad was, and it was just like he would go days not talking to me sometimes and like I remember as a little girl doing exactly what you're talking about, and it was like, well, maybe it was the vacuuming that did it, so like like the next time it would happen I'd be like vacuuming the whole house and then that wouldn't work. And so then it'd be like, well, maybe it was because you know, I mowed the lawn and it was just like, like you keep hitting all the buttons.
Speaker 1:I'm like I'm imagining a little mouse and like in an experiment, and like you keep hitting all the buttons, thinking that this is the thing that's going to do it, and it's like it's none of it and it's none of your responsibility to you know right, right, yeah, but but she, I mean the people pleasing and my core wound of abandonment, like that's where it goes, that's where it starts is with my mother.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my stepfather, who's the man who raised me. My biological father did not raise me. He definitely had a temper. He definitely had a lot of unintegrated anger. He was violent, physically abusive, verbally abusive. But it was like my whole childhood I knew, like I knew what he's doing is not okay, like this is not cool, like I knew that when I was in my 30s, before I realized that what my mom did actually caused more harm to me than the overt physical abuse and anger of my stepfather. It was the Basically, one of my parents was an overt narcissist and one of them was a covert narcissist. And it was the covert narcissist who caused more harm and ultimately my core wound of abandonment, more than the overt, overt narcissist with his anger.
Speaker 1:Which fucking sucks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just I like people pleasing feels if people who do people please are listening and they are like I don't know how I could ever stop this. I don't know how to exist without being like this in relationships. I don't know how to not be all things to all people. I don't know how to not over serve and over give and over care and never say no. Like I don't know how to do any of that.
Speaker 2:Like once you just let yourself dip your toe in the water of that, like you'll feel shaky about it. It'll feel like I'm doing the wrong thing, I'm being selfish, I'm a bad person, like people are going to not like me anymore, whatever it's going to feel that way. But if you stick with it, you eventually come out to the other side where you're like I can handle the abandonment of the other person more than I can handle abandoning myself, because I abandon myself when I try to work to earn that attachment back and that continuously sends that subconscious message that I'm not worthy of it. Inherently I have to work to get it and that's really, really hard. And like, once you come out of that, like it's very, very difficult to go back consistently, like I'll get triggered every once in a while, sure, but it's not a pattern over and over and over and over. For me anymore, it's not a way of existing anymore the way it used to be.
Speaker 1:And it also like, just to introduce a bit of like, the nuance that we I think all three of us it's so important for us to like keep that in mind, is like, as you two are talking about being more flexible with religion and talking about God, I'm realizing, sitting here, being like, oh, you know, I can be a bit more flexible about food because that feels more integrated, but when it comes to like saying God, I can do that, I can do the code switching thing with my clients, but I can't do that with my grandparents.
Speaker 1:And so, like, just because one part of people pleasing feels integrated and feels like you have solid and sovereign ways of working with it, there may be aspects that don't feel as integrated. I don't know how that's going to change over time with me and my grandparents, but I know that for now, it does not feel safe for me to use the word God because then they take that to a different place than I want them to take it to, and so, yeah, I think that it's oh my gosh, I'm so. I feel like we can talk forever and I'm just looking at the time. There's so much nuance.
Speaker 2:So many rabbit trails and places to go. Yeah, and I think that that is the nature of the work. That's why I, like you know I can't encapsulate this for you in 10 slides on Instagram and a 2200 word caption Like I cannot. That's impossible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we can't even encapsulate it in like an almost, you know, two hour podcast episodes. Two hour?
Speaker 3:no, yeah Well, I just want to like open up the space because we have a couple more minutes, but any last little pieces to land in here with just to like finishing out thoughts and Well, I think one of the things that has been coming up, as I'm like listening and hearing your experiences and like the beautiful things you guys shared about what has helped you and reflecting on what's helped me and I think the stand out and that all of us have experienced, is somebody who we feel safe with, who also can hold us and reflect back in a kind way. You know, and like I, my partner not that we always had this kind of relationship at the at. In the beginning it was incredibly triggering for me, but over time, you know, we learn to communicate because he's very much like let's talk about the thing. This is what you did, can you see it? You know, and he's kind of like he's much more hard ass about it and he's very like earthy and like Taurus Virgo, like here's the facts and and that's hard to come against but I trust him right and we've cultivated this trust. I know that he's doing so not in a malicious way.
Speaker 3:I had to grow into that, it took time and now I know that when he is calling me out, it's really calling me in right, and like having reflecting back, something that maybe is a part of my own pattern because I have expressed to him hey, can you tell me in the moment and I may react back.
Speaker 3:I'm trying to work through this, but can we have an agreement that if you see this patterning, if you see like I do this, can you just let me know that it's happening in the moment, cause so much of it is like unconscious right, and that has been really, really helpful for me to have somebody reflect back, and I know that I can. I can be okay in processing in front of him. I can be okay in like, you know, raging or like or being like. Oh, okay, thanks for you know, thanks for pointing that out. I'm going to like switch. It doesn't mean I'm not going to feel all the things, but at least I have that safe space to be able to work through it so that the next time, when it's not with somebody right, who like I feel safe with or whatever, I have my bearings a bit or at least like your working to that. So that's one thing that I realize how just so incredibly important it is to have those in our, in some at least one person like that in relationship with.
Speaker 1:That's good.
Speaker 2:That's really good. I totally agree, and I think the only thing that I would add is I know, as someone who's been in a pattern of people pleasing for most of my life, that is primary, primarily run by the emotions of anxiety over loss of attachment, and then usually guilt and or shame, and so, as I like, play with okay. So what if guilt was integrated?
Speaker 1:What would that look like what could?
Speaker 2:integrated guilt look like? What does integrated shame look like? What does integrated anxiety look like, even right. So like, in integrating these different emotions and learning to like, feel them without fear and all the judgment that comes along with them, which makes it 10 times worse than what actually is, all the stories, it's not just the emotions themselves, it's all the shit in your head about. It is like leaning into this idea of like.
Speaker 2:I wonder if, when I feel guilt because I don't people please and there's a story that I'm selfish or I'm a bad person or I'm self centered or I'm not there for people or whatever the story is like, so I feel guilty about that right, and so then guilt becomes kind of the onus for why I people please, because I want to avoid feeling guilty, because guilt sucks to feel. But I wonder if guilt was more integrated, if guilt says like, neutrally, here's where you're not taking responsibility for something you know and like you're having this experience, this emotion of guilt that you're perceiving as bad, and so you want to keep people pleasing so you don't have to feel the guilt. But if you actually felt the guilt and said what's the truth here? What is the truth in this guilt? Why do I feel guilty? Oh, because I'm not doing something for someone, or because I'm not all things to all people, or whatever it is. Then it's like, well, what am I not doing?
Speaker 2:Do I feel guilt about what I'm not doing for myself? Like, is this guilt a messenger that's showing me? Like here's where you're not having boundaries and you feel bad about that. Here's where you're not keeping promises to yourself because you're putting everyone else ahead of you, right? I recently had an experience of deep shame and I like moved through it and then afterwards I was like holy shit, I just moved through like an integrated experience of shame, because no one was shaming me. I felt shame because I did something that was out of my integrity and like the shame was the messenger that said this wasn't in your integrity. Like that doesn't feel good, don't do that again Right.
Speaker 2:It's like this integrated experience of shame. I think if people, pleasers or people who are working on this pattern could start to just like, play in the realm of like I'm feeling this emotion of guilt, or I'm feeling this emotion of shame or anxiety or whatever, what's the truth about this? What is the message here for me? And if you're willing to ask yourself those questions, like I think that will lead you naturally to a place of balance, of homeostasis, of harmony, like Vanessa was saying earlier. Like sure, there's going to be hiccups along the way. You're not going to get it perfect every single time.
Speaker 2:Listen to the podcast about perfectionism that cats go on next after this. But, yeah, it's just like when you can feel whatever it is that you're feeling without fear, and you can be curious about it and ask like, what is the truth here? And every single one of those emotions like yes, it has a dysregulated side to it that feels really gross and you don't want to feel it and in your body it's yucky and whatever. But there's also the possibility of that emotion being integrated and so it calls you back to responsibility, or it calls you back to integrity, or it calls you to rest or whatever it is that it's calling you to, so that was the thing I wanted to add.
Speaker 1:It's beautiful, wonderful, and you all share where people can find you. So I'm going to just Vanessa, can you go first, sure.
Speaker 3:So let's see. Wildlyrootedcom is my website. I have a podcast. It's called Feed your Wild and you can find it anywhere where you might find a podcast. And I'm on Instagram and my handle is at Wildly Rooted, so those are the main places I hang out.
Speaker 1:And then Lindsay. I think people will find a heal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all the same, my website is lindsaylockitcom. My podcast is Holistic Trauma Healing. You can listen to it anywhere you listen to podcasts, and Instagram is I am Lindsay Lockit and that's with an EY, not an AY. Perfect.
Speaker 1:Alrighty, my dears. Thank you so much for coming out and diving into this big juicy topic with me. I think it's going to be really helpful for folks to hear. And yeah, I'm just so glad that both of you are in my life Same.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Kat.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me, kat Yay, bye.